Can we please go back to the topic !!???
Cheers, Deino
Sorry, my bad 😮
I’ll try and resist the urge from here on (maybe the admin can siphon off the F-35 related posts into another thread?)
Nearly all of today’s combat aircraft, so called 4, 4.5, 5th generation aircraft combine the roles of “bomber, fighter and intercepter” in the very same aircraft – even the F-22 can carry out a strike mission. The F-4 was a successful multirole aircraft 45 years ago…
Now now. You know as well as anyone that compromises can be biased in one direction or another.
Of the 4 VLO fighters/prototypes in existence, I think we could agree the F-22 is most biased towards a fighter, the J-20 most biased towards a bomber/interceptor and the PAK-FA somewhere in between (although leaning more towards fighter than bomber).
The F-35? Well… compared to the other 3 I think its just too small and powderpuff to be effective.
Now there’s a question for a thread topic; is it possible to develop a 5G fighter which costs USD50 mn or less?
Its called the Saab Gripen NG. 😉
BTW I doubt the J-20 and/or PAK-FA could ever hope to approach the sales of the F-35. IMO
Are you attempting to use that as a yardstick over whether it is fit to be considered a 5th gen fighter?
In that case… just to demonstrate the stupidity of that line of argument… what does that make the F-22?
Oh, and you still have to justify:
With the PLAAF J-20 offering similar performance to the PAK-FA.
I see no basis for that whatsoever.
Indeed, I’m not even sure if this J-20 is actually intended as a fighter yet.
I have always felt that if we were to have new CVs (and I would rather not) then the Typhoon aught to have been developed for the role, the risks and costs involved in developing a supersonic STOVL fighter being too great. I think this view is being borne out by the F-35B.
I think it just shows how right the French were to insist the FEFA be capable of carrier operations.
Such a stupid decision by the UK not to see that as an obvious increase in flexibility and risk reduction (when considered in the context of the need of the MOD as a whole).
When looking at the J-20 intakes it also occured to me that perhaps those will be more susceptible to stalls during high-angle-of-attack maneuvers when compared to the T-50 intakes due to the fact you mentioned above.
Yup.
Which is why I am wondering is the thing actually a high agility fighter at all… or is it designed to be a tactical bomber that is an absolute b*t*h to intercept.
At the end of the day, what wins wars? Planes killing planes*, or planes destroying infrastructure, buildings and ground vehicles?
*why devote resource to things that enable the latter (F-22), rather than going for the latter directly?
Where are people getting the idea that a larger intake = better high speed performance?
Maybe you wanna start to look at the streamtubes that are upstream large commerical turbofans (running only subsonically) to get an idea of what is actually wanted in the engine for optimal pressure ratios across the fan stage(s) and compressor stages….
So…. whats the thinking folks?
Is this thing a fighter, or is it more akin to a Tu-22 Blinder?
A fast, reasonably stealthy bomber force attacking over a wide range of approach vectors is gonna be mighty hard to intercept with the F-22…. simply due to detection range decreasing your reaction time.
Its gonna be nigh on impossible for the F-35.
I think that the F35 doesn’t endanger the US lead. The politicians do. The F35 was designed to replace F16 and F18 and with air to ground as its preferable task. The F22 would take care of air dominance. The problem rises, when the politicians axe the F22 and suddenly, the F35 must do the F22’s work too.
Stall the ball there!
Cast your mind back to the origins of the F-16 and the F/A-18… i.e. the YF-16 and YF-17. Now, what was their prime, indeed, what was their only design goal?
The suspicions about the F-35’s dogfighting ability certainly do not stem from it being “designed” to replace the F16 and F/A-18. Rather, they stem from the question; is it capable of replacing the F-16 and F/A-18
If I ever see Ryanair or Emirates demanding their planes with steam guages in the cockpit and manual cable-connected throttles,
Erm… actually… certain low cost carriers have asked Airbus (probably Boeing too; but Airbus I know for sure) if they can supply a cheaper aircraft without half the fancy electronics on the flight deck… the airlines don’t need it, and they don’t want to have to pay for it (or deal with associated maintenance/dispatch issues).
what these UCAV will resemble and do.
They’ll take the form of RAMjet powered SAMs.
Capable of persistently engaging a target so if they miss first time, they can turn and have another go.
More like a homing torpedo than a traditional missile.
What about Russia? Do they work for LM?
Do Russia export fighters?
Is it in their interests to drum up interest for PAK-FA sales by using the marketing concept of the 5th generation fighter?
Will the PAK-FA be able to fire air to surface missiles?
Ex- F-15 pilot Doug Dildy fought F-14As during training.
So in a BVR engagement a mere 30-degree “check turn” and ramp down to a lower altitude was usually enough to break lock and negate the otherwise “dreaded” Phoenix. “
Except that of course the other guy now has you on defensive maneouvering and can hit you with a follow up volley of sparrows before you can get your nose back on him and your speed up to give your missiles the same range.
Not an entirely unexpected papering over the cracks from a pilot too cocky in his own aircraft and not appreciative enough of others.
[Note Su-50 – that is not a dig at you, but at Doug Dildy]
The F-22 has proven superiority over even modern french designs.
Except that the poor, impoverished, warmed up coffin, ****box, 4th generation French Rafale has usefully dropped bombs in Afghanistan.
The 5th generation all-singing all-dancing F-22 has not and can not.
So, right now, in terms of usability… the F-22 is inferior to even 40 year old F-16s.
That is my central point in this thread about the stupidity of the generation game. It suits lockheed to focus on that; as it deflects from the massive and obvious failings of their key programs.
Political baggage involves flight restrictions and rules that unfairly penalize one opponent over another. You’ve read something into my statement.
I’m struggling to think of a WVR ruling that will not equally handicap both sides; and none will seek to limit the performance advantage of any particular airframe.
BVR…. well, as Bager has mentioned; viz ID + engagement envelopes are the norm – but they would handicap the longer ranged weapons…
Hence why I was hinting at did you think the F-15 was better long range. The problem is my failure to come up with some ROEs that will be detrimental to the F-15 and not your sentence… if you can suggest some specific rules that would help!