BlackArcherNothing to indicate that Eurojet would be willing to share more technology than GE would..and there is the issue of commonality for the F-414 engines on the LCA Mk2 and the AMCA. Stocking spares, overhaul, training and so on would be a lot easier if the F-414 is chosen as the baseline on which to work to increase thrust by 20%. GE has done a lot of preliminary risk reduction work already on the F-414 EPE engine.
BlackArcherAnd so the new Defence Minister has decided on the HTT-40 program impasse between HAL and IAF..38 new PC-7 MkII trainers for the IAF will be ordered to tide over immediate needs and the remaining 68 will be HTT-40 basic trainers ordered from HAL.
Playing the mediator between the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) over who should supply basic trainer aircraft for the IAF, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) Saturday said HAL as well as Pilatus Aircraft would supply the remaining trainers. DAC, chaired by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, gave the green signal for buying 38 trainer aircraft from the Swiss manufacturer and added that the rest of the requirement would be met through HAL.
“38 aircraft would be bought from Pilatus using option clause. The remaining requirement would be met by HAL with indigenous development of HTT- 40,” said a Defence Ministry official.The matter pertains to a requirement of 181 basic trainer aircraft (BTA) for basic training of IAF pilots at Air Force Academy (AFA). The IAF had placed an order for buying 75 Pilatus PC- 7 Mk II aircraft in 2012. While HAL had shown interest in supplying the remaining 106 aircraft by offering its HTT- 40 trainer, IAF had expressed “reservations” over HTT- 40, according to a disclosure in Parliament in 2013.
The deadlock was resolved Saturday by Parrikar who has now decided that 38 of the pending 106 trainers would be bought from Pilatus and remaining 68 from HAL. Interestingly, DAC has also cleared the way to make HTT- 40 “commercially viable”. “Adequate orders will be given to HAL to make this a commercially viable project. The numbers may increase and the project shall be monitored by a committee. The committee will periodically give its review to the DAC,” the official said. The DAC also cleared the way for procurement of 12 Mine Counter Measures Vessels for the Navy at Rs 32,000 crore from Goa Shipyards Ltd.
BlackArcherRolls Royce (and not Eurojet?) to offer an EJ-200 derivative engine for the AMCA fighter
RR to offer Ej200 engine to power AMCA
Rolls-Royce is one of the three aero major which has been invited to submit a proposal for joint development of a new engine in the class of 110kN thrust to power India’s 5th-generation fighter jet have confirmed that they will be offering Eurojet EJ200 engine used on Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft developed by EuroJet Turbo GmbH which is a multi-national consortium of which Rolls-Royce is partner .
On sidelines of Aero India 2015, EuroJet Turbo Company officials had talks with DRDO and ADA officials who are developing AMCA, EuroJet officials also briefed Indian officials about EJ2x0 a new engine Variant which according to their In-house R&D can generate 30% more power compared to the original EJ200 with a reheated output of around 120 kN from current 90kN developed by Eurojet EJ200 engine.While it seems like General Electric which has supplied F404-GE-IN20 engines to power Tejas MK-1 and have won a contract to supply 99 F414-INS6 engines to power Tejas MK-2 will again be front runners to supply engines for AMCA Project, Eurojet Turbo which has recently reached a memorandum of understanding with Turkey on supply of a derivative of the EJ200 to be used in the Turkey “TFX ” program which is a twin-engine fifth-generation jet fighter to be developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries are also confident of their chances In India.
EuroJet Turbo also has developed and demonstrated 2D thrust vector control module which can be integrated into the engine as required in AMCA engine requirements
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BlackArcherLight Combat Helicopter completes cold weather trials in Leh
The Light Combat Helicopter that is under development has completed the mandatory cold weather trials at Air Force Station, Leh. Its performance has been satisfactory, its developer Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd said on Monday.
The second technology demonstrator prototype LCH TD2 was taken from Bangalore to Leh and tested for its performance in extreme cold weather as part of its overall assessment.
HAL Chairman T.Suvarna Raju said the engine starts were satisfactory at temperature of minus 18 degrees Celsius at 4.1 km. Flights were also carried out to assess the helicopter’s high altitude performance and low speed handling. The trials covered engine starts with internal batteries after overnight cold soak at altitudes of 3 km and 4.1 km.
Pilots from the customers Air Force and Army were involved as also representatives of certifying agencies the RCMA and DGAQA.
So far, three prototypes have flown so far and the fourth prototype is being built to speed up the trials for certification process.
Mr. Raju said, “The Light Combat Helicopter Technology Demonstrator TD-3 made its maiden flight in November last year and the TD-4 is likely to fly soon. The IOC [initial operational clearance] is expected in the later part of this year. To achieve this we are concentrating on building more prototypes and increasing the number of flights to reduce the lead time.”
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BlackArcherSaab picks Brazil’s AEL for Gripen avionics display
Saab has tapped Brazil-based AEL System to provide wide-area and head-up displays for Gripen NG fighters that are being purchased by the Brazilian military.
Brazil became the export launch customer for the NG-model multi-role fighter when in October it ordered 28 single-seat and eight two-seat aircraft for its FX-2 programme. The selection process for a company to produce the cockpit displays began in January, Saab says.
Development and delivery of the Gripen NG avionics will last four years and includes integration and production work to be performed at AEL’s Porto Alegre, Brazil, campus under a technology-sharing agreement that is part of the contract. AEL is wholly owned by Israeli defence electronics manufacturer Elbit Systems.Saab will perform system integration with the airframe in partnership with Brazilian aerospace company Embraer. Contract work will begin in the second half of 2015, Saab says. Its transfer of technology agreement also includes development of improved human-machine interfaces for advanced fighters like the Gripen NG.
The Gripen NG’s wide-area display is a multi-purpose touchscreen that can display full-motion video on a 19in by 8in panel. The heads-up display provides flight control and mission information for the pilot while looking out of the canopy.
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BlackArcherLatest article from NDTV also mentions that things are now moving ahead
New Delhi: The 12 billion dollar discussions centred on whether India will buy 126 Rafale fighter jets from France have made some progress, sources said today, a day after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar met his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian in Delhi.
Major kinks remain in need of ironing, but are unlikely to be deal-breakers, said sources involved in the talks, though they cautioned that it’s unlikely that the deal will be signed before Prime Minister Narendra Modi travels to Paris in April. However, by that time, some officials who are part of the negotiating process are hopeful that a statement of intent can be agreed upon by both the Indian and French governments for the contract that has been stalled for nearly three years.
Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, has concerns about the carbon-fibre composite material that would be used by HAL to form the skin of the Rafale fighter. Though HAL prides itself in having mastered the use of these composites (which are also used on the indigenous Tejas fighter plane), HAL uses a manual technique. Dassault, on the other hand, uses an automated and much quicker process to manufacture super-critical carbon-fibre composite structures such as the wings of the Rafale. HAL and Dassault will now need to arrive at a consensus on how best to speedily develop carbo-composites to ensure that the time-frame for the manufacture of Rafale fighters is met. A slower process by HAL could mean that Dassault’s delivery deadlines for the Rafale will not be met.
French negotiators have indicated that that while they are obliged to train Indian engineers on the assembly of key components of the Rafale fighter, they need specific assurances to ensure that the engineers they train remain deployed and committed to the manufacture of the Rafale, again, to ensure that the jets are manufactured and delivered on time to the Indian Air Force.French sources say HAL engineers will need a change in the work culture and the avionics labs in Bangalore will need upgrading to meet the French standards. This is, again, not seen as a deal breaker, but the French have flagged a concern that the modernization of HAL’s technology could be a time-consuming process.
While the Ministry of Defence may be aware of HAL’s limitations, the government is clear that these are issues that need to be negotiated between Rafale and HAL and that its primary concern is the eventual delivery and performance of the Rafale fighter according to its advertised design specifications. NDTV has learned that the first batch of Rafale fighters assembled in India would take approximately 44 months to be manufactured, though this time-frame is likely to be reduced as HAL gains in experience and systems are fine-tuned. The final, fully made-in-India examples of the jet would likely be constructed quicker.
Hindustan Aeronautics, for its part, is positive about its capabilities in manufacturing the Rafale fighter. At Aero India, Asia’s largest air show, last week, the new HAL chairman Suvarna Raju told reporters that HAL “is the lead production agency for the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (ie the Rafale) which gives us [the rights] for manufacture and testing. We don’t want others to stand guarantee for our product.” This would be welcome news for Dassault as it seeks to close the Rafale deal, negotiations for which have continued for more than three years.
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Note that Dassault would take in general ~36 months to build a Rafale from scratch. That is generally the time taken by other OEMs to build their jets too. Long lead items like forgings take the longest time to source and machine, so 44 months is 8 months more than what Dassault would take to build a Rafale..in time, with HAL setting up all the processes in place and manpower getting trained and building experience, HAL would probably be able to build a Rafale in 38-40 months time. Later batches of the Rafale built using raw materials sourced from France would take that long. The Hawk and the Su-30MKI both saw similar flows..initial ones took lot longer than the OEM would take, but eventually they were even able to compress the schedules.
It is a positive to see HAL stand up and state that they don’t require the OEM to guarantee the Rafales they build..but a Dassault team may be permanently stationed to oversee HAL processes and quality. Something similar happened with the MKI too, where a Russian team was stationed at HAL facilities to supervise and trouble shoot.
But something like manpower attrition is a serious concern and here I can sympathise with Dassault..if they train HAL employees and then eventually leave the organisation or are moved to other programs (and HAL’s plate is full), then it will impact timelines. HAL may need to come up with some internal procedures to deal with this. A lot of private sector firms poach HAL employees regularly since there is a dearth of trained manpower in the aerospace sector in India.
Regarding upgrading processes to manufacture composites, it can be done. That is definitely not a deal breaker and on the contrary is the intent of the MRCA- to introduce new technologies and techniques that currently don’t exist in the country for various reasons..tape laying machines for automated manufacture of composite panels is a technology that will benefit ALL of the various fighter and helo programs that are ongoing..especially the Tejas and the AMCA.
BlackArcherposted somewhere up (i did) roughly 14000 euros as accounted by France (including exterior operations)
As said by scorpion these things must be done at isperimeter. For example France accounts 8000 euros for mirage 2000 and india 4000 dollars.
Proportinnally that would make 7000 $ CPFH using indian accounts. Much lower than MKIBu all that is absurd. CPFH is much depending on the way you calculate it and how you use your planes etc. etc.
Noone seriously reported anything about the cost of Rafales in Egypt for the following reasons : noone exactly knows what is included in the deal, in particular types and exact numbers of missiles (i think it is more or less known for mica and aasm, but that is all).
so then if it is so hard to compare the Cost per flight hour for different airplanes and different air forces, then I wonder why anyone would just believe that the Su-30MKI is more expensive than the Rafale per flight hour? Sure, its bigger, heavier, but parts may well be much cheaper and many, in India’s case will be produced indigenously, which generally cost quite a bit less.
The point being that generic statements that the Su-30MKI is costlier to operate per flight hour cannot be made unless backed with adequate data and a comparable baseline.
BlackArcherThe numbers you linked to have been completely debunked, and never represented an apples to apples comparison.
Fine, whats the CPFH for the Rafale then?
BlackArcherAero India 2015- BAe Systems in talks to weaponise IAF Hawks
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is in negotiations with BAE Systems to weaponise its fleet of Hawk Mk 132 advanced jet trainers (AJTs) so they could be deployed on strike co-ordinated armed reconnaissance and close air support missions.
BAE Systems officials told IHS Jane’s at Aero India 2015 that the IAF is evaluating the feasibility of integrating its largely licence-built Hawk Mk 132s with a range of weapon systems that are fitted onto its SEPECAT Jaguar fighters.
According to Dave Corfield, head of Hawk India, this included MBDA’s Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missiles, Rafael Litening targeting pods, and a range of smart weapons.He said the IAF was also assessing the possibility of equipping the Hawks with the Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System, which turns an unguided 70 mm rocket into a precision laser-guided weapon.
The IAF issued a request for information for such a system in 2014 to which, in addition to BAE Systems, an Israeli and US vendor responded.
“We are in talks not only with the IAF and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL] [which has been licence building Hawks since 2007-08], but also the Ministry of Defence [MoD] on arming the AJTs,” Corfield said.
By 2016-17 the IAF will operate 106 Hawks and the Indian Navy another 17, making India the largest operator of the type. The IAF plans to acquire another 20 Hawks for its aerobatics team, disbanded in February 2011 after its HAL-built Surya Kiran HJT-16 Mk I and Mk II aircraft were diverted to train fighter pilots.
Alongside, the IAF is examining an offer by BAE Systems and Israel’s Elbit to equip the Hawks with virtual training systems of major combat aircraft.BAE officials said these would simulate radar, weapons, and electronic warfare systems of MiG-29s, Mirage-2000Hs, and Su-30MKIs – the platforms to which trainee fighter pilots graduate.
IAF fighter pilots begin their instruction on Pilatus PC-7 Mk II tandem-seat basic turboprop trainers for 55 hours before moving onto the Kiran HJT-16 Mk I and Mk II intermediate jet trainers for another 70 hours. Thereafter, they graduate to Hawk Mk 132s for two ‘semesters’ of 135 hours before going on to operate fighters.
BTW, there was a cockpit mockup for a Hawk Avionics upgrade program being done in-country at AI-’15. Couldn’t get details since there was too much of a crowd around the cockpit mockup and no official was free.
If this program to weaponise the Hawk does go through, the IAF would see a substantial number of additional airframes that would be capable of striking targets on land..a very handy capability that could come in use when the IAF has attained part air superiority..what isn’t mentioned is the addition of the IAF’s ODL datalink to be able to share target data with other platforms as well.
the Hawks could be embedded as part of strike packages with other Jaguars or MiG-27s and with MiG-29UPGs/Su-30MKIs/Mirage-2000-5/Tejas Mk1 providing escort. Likely loadouts would be – 2 ASRAAM missiles and possibly 1 or 2 drop tanks and 2 pylons carrying LGBs or other PGMs or the APKWS if it does get selected.
BlackArcherFor this reason and others I am extremely skeptical of the Su-30 having an operating cost advantage over a Rafale. The Rafale may be an extremely expensive aircraft to operate, but the Su-30MKI should be in a completely different class.
As per an HAL official presenting at an Aero India seminar, the CPH for the Su-30MKI is ~$12000. Mirage-2000 CPFH was in the $4000 range.
Now how is the Su-30MKI figure in a “completely different class” from the Rafale, whose CPFH (Cost per flight hour) figures are supposedly in the $16,500 range?
Even if maintenance man hours are higher per flight hour for the Su-30MKI, the cost of labour pales in comparison to the fuel cost in general and especially so in India. Plus, historically, based on the Mirage-2000 experience, we know that Dassault aircraft spares don’t come cheap.
Even if you account for lower number of maintenance events, the cost differential is such that the MKI works out far cheaper..acquisition costs are much much lower, and over 6000 hours, the CPFH difference adds $27 million to the cost of the Rafale.
Nothing tells us that the Rafale LCC will be lower than that of the Su-30MKI..in fact, it appears to be vice versa.
The Sukhoi is going to burn far more fuel. An operator would need to buy more airframes to get the same hours flown per year due to reduced availability. An operator would need to buy more engines due to reduced availability and lifespan, etc.
reduced availability was primarily because there was no facility in place for the repair and overhaul. Now that it is in place with the capacity to overhaul 15 MKIs per year, the fleet wide availability will definitely go up. As the Indian Def Min stated, the IAF needs to look at how to improve the serviceability and availability of its fleet of MKIs. It can be done and its not a given that the MKI fleet will have low reliability or uptime figures.
Bottom line, if the Rafale can’t handily beat the Su-30MKI’s operating costs then something has gone terribly wrong at Dassault.
Without doing a very detailed analysis of the operating costs of the Su-30MKI and the Rafale (taking into account the cost of spares for both fighters and their detailed maintenance events), you cannot make such a statement. You’ve simply assumed that the MKI is heavier and bigger and hence costs more to operate per flight hour..whereas released CPFH figures don’t indicate that.
BlackArcheri know but there are still things that are known for these fighter such as their weapons load out, engine they will use, F-16 block 60 is similar to previous F-16, LCA mk II use a stronger radar and engine but have same aerodynamic as previous LCA, Mig-35 is same as Mig-29 SMT in aerodynamic but use AESA radar + heavier +”have TVC engine so i think we can somewhat compare them
Wrong there..the LCA Mk2 has a longer fuselage with a 0.5m plug being added and some aerodynamic refinements are being done as well..when compared to the LCA Mk1, it will feature even better avionics with a new cockpit with larger displays, integrated EW suite, AESA radar, more fuel and more payload.
BlackArcherAero India 2015- Shin Maywa confident of progress on US-2 sale to India
ShinMaywa officials at Aero India 2015 believe that Japanese and Indian government support for the sale of 12 US-2 amphibian aircraft to the Indian Navy (IN) means it should overcome delays that could threaten the deal.
The IN requirement for a long-range search-and-rescue platform, first mooted in 2012, is awaiting approval by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), which has to approve all programmes before contract negotiations can begin.
Senior IN officers told IHS Jane’s in January that the USD1.65 billion US-2i procurement featured “prominently” in the Services Capital Acquisition Categorisation Committee (SCAPCC) meeting at the Integrated Services Headquarters in New Delhi on 31 December 2014.
All major Indian materiel acquisition proposals are mandatorily routed through the SCAPCC by the respective service headquarters.
Partha Dutta Roy, ShinMaywa’s senior manager in charge of sales and business development in India, told IHS Jane’s on 18 February that “a fair amount of work has been done” on outlining the various elements of the proposed deal so that work can move ahead quickly once DAC approval is given.A joint working group set up in 2014 to expedite the acquisition has held a number of meetings that have prepared the groundwork for transfer of technology, offsets and contract negotiations, Roy said at the biennial defence show in Bangalore.
The IN plans to directly import two US-2is and assembling and licence building the remaining 10 in collaboration with a private-sector Indian manufacturer.
IN officials have previously said the service anticipates increasing the number of platforms it buys as its operational requirements and those of the Indian Coast Guard (ICG) are rapidly expanding in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR).
Roy said the 47-tonne US-2i, powered by four Rolls Royce AE-2100J turboprop engines and with an operational range of 4,700 km, can “reach wherever you are in the IOR in three hours max”.
Unlike helicopters, “it’s not limited by sea state or range”, Roy said, making it “the ideal platform for replenishment and long-range search and rescue”.
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