BlackArcherJust dont get it do you? No one believes these “approvals” anymore. They just tend to lead to cancelled tenders or years of fruitless negtiations. I could “approve” my wife buying a new car and tell her its fine. Unless I turn up and pay the dealer it means nothing…..
The cabinet can approve a new Death Star and you will spend hundreds of posts telling us it’s true.
Credibility = destroyed
the approval is for a follow on to the existing Shivalik class frigates, built at MDL, in INDIA. And the subs are to be designed based on the INS Arihant class experience. Again, designed and built in INDIA.
No need to go abroad and no need for big competitions. This isn’t the P-75I diesel electric sub competition we’re talking about here.
You’re confusing the state of desperate fiscal affairs of your native country with that of India. We’ll manage without putting forth a bowl, thank you very much.
BlackArcherA much-needed perspective on things I think. We are forever hearing from IAF perspective and other commentators most of whom for one reason or another adopt a similar perspective: that HAL is at fault. It is good to hear the other side of the story.
If India ever wishes to attain self-reliance with contemporary standards of technology, the armed forces will have to learn to accept less than ideal solutions in the interim, just as China had to with J-8, JH-7, etc.
The part I’m happy about is that they’re going ahead with the program by seeking Navy and Army support and by aiming at exports. The flavour of the current time is “Make in India” and the IAF is really swimming against the tide as of now. The program is on a mission mode and if they do manage a first flight this year, it’ll be quite something.
The one good thing that may emerge from a Rafale cancellation is that the IAF budget ear-marked for the MRCA will be freed up for the Super-30 upgrades and to inject much more funds into Tejas Mk1 orders and production (where HAL is looking to increase it to 16 per year from the current infrastructure for 8 per year) and into speeding up the Mk2 R&D phase. It is a fact that many of these indigenous programs continuously suffer from drip-funding whereas imports take up exponentially larger sums of money.
Supporting indigenous programs that may not be at par with the world’s best, but through continuous development can be more than good enough, is a key expectation of many from the IAF. So far, their track record in this matter is dismal. But as the political winds are clearly pointing towards greater indigenisation and local production, the IAF will be hard pressed to justify imports that eat up massive forex. This Aero India, apparently a lot of the speakers have more than hinted at this and the IAF brass have also hinted that there will be changes in the future in this regard.
BlackArcherAnd now a report that suggests that Dassault may pull out of negotiations..too much intrigue!
Dassault may abandon $20-bn MMRCA deal
By: Huma Siddiqui | Bangalore | February 17, 2015
Dassault Aviation, maker of Rafale fighter jet which is in exclusive negotiations with the ministry of defence for close to three years now for the $ 20-billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, may have to abandon the plan over lingering issues.
This is despite the fact that bagging the MMRCA tender, which envisages purchase of 126 aircraft with an option for buying 63 more, is critical for Dassault. Contrary to initial expectations of a quick contract signature, Dassault-MoD negotiations have dragged for over two years.
As reported by FE earlier, cost has been an issue since the start besides the company’s reluctance to transfer sophisticated technology to India and meet offsets requirements. In the last few months, questions have been raised by Dassault regarding the role of HAL in the MMRCA.Moreover, the French company is unwilling to be held liable for the quality, timely and on-cost delivery of the 108 aircraft to be license produced at HAL. This is in breach of tender conditions and has emerged as a major threat to speedy contract conclusion.
Highly placed sources disclosed to FE that after being declared as L1, the French company was very much aware that as per the RFP it had responded to, “state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics was the designated production agency.” The French company had offered 22% work share for HAL at the initial stage of negotiations, as its response to the RFP was influenced by a planned partnership with Reliance Industries, that planned to expand into aerospace and defence in 2011.
Talking to FE, Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran, senior adviser to HAL’s management, said: “Guaranteeing HAL’s work is not the issue, but that the French are being “rigid” and refusing to stand behind the integrity of the design.”
Matheswaran, who was involved in drafting the original RFP for the deal, added: “Unfortunately, the French don’t want to be accountable in any way. However, the original equipment manufacturer has to stand guarantee with respect to design and integrity of design. By constantly denying to take responsibility for production of the 108 aircraft at HAL, the French are trying to get away from the OEM’s responsibility.” Also, it is about technology transfer, which the French are loath to do.
BlackArcherINS Kolkata firing a Brahmos missile
BlackArcherCross-posting from BRF..Prashant Bhadoria is the Project Head for the HTT-40 basic turboprop trainer that HAL is building. The talk was given at the Aero India 2015 seminar series.
Was listening to talks in the Aero India Seminar. Prasanth Singh Bhadoria covered the HTT-40 and came across as a really angry man. He bashed IAF left-right and center, which people did not take nicely. He spoke of the HTT-34 and HTT-35 and how the IAF overlooked everything and then just went for imports. He was also angry with the “unceremonious” grounding of the HPT-32. He said that the fuel system was changed, and the recovery parachute mechanism was attached and certified by CEMILAC. He felt that the HPT-32 deserved another chance.
Anyways, the updates of the HTT-40 are as follows.
1. Front fuselage complete.
2. Rear fuselage complete.
3. Engine arriving in April (was very disgruntled about the anonymous letter which slowed him down by a couple of months).
4. Cockpit to be complete June-July, first flight to follow soon after.
5. All lessons from the IJT have been incorporated (Bhadoria has been associated with the IJT for the last 10 years).
6. Will have a 0-0 ejection seat.
7. He said HAL is going through with this project (with or without IAF’s reuirements).
8. HAL wants to sell it to the Navy for coastal surveillance instead of helicopters. Navy was interested to put it on the aircraft-carriers. Bhadoria told them that the landing gears were not strong enough for carriers, but it can land and take off from any unprepared strip. With 2 additional fuel tanks, the plane should fly for 6 hours.
9. HAL is also going to the Army and saying IAF has the attack helicopters, you get the HTT-40 for ground support. It is much more effective (range and time at station), low on maintenance, and exctremely cheap. They can put everything on it from bombs, PGMs, rockets, anti-tank missiles to A2A missiles (showed a video of taking out aerial targets by some other trainer).
10. After the flight testing is done, he will ask for 100 crores (from HAL) for weaponization and 50 crores thereafter to make it into an attack UAV.
11. Said Navy and Army on board. Has recieved interest for exports. Hopes that IAF will come on board soon.
Added later:
I forgot to mention a major advantage of having a weaponized trainer. HTT-40 has a very similar cockpit to the IJT and AJT. So, by allowing the weapons training on a BTT, substantial costs can be saved. This seems to be the new trend in training in various airforces including the USAF owing to the funding crunch.
BlackArcherMr. BlackArcher, me thinks there may be a ‘crore’ missing in your statement above.
thanks. Fixed. 🙂
BlackArcherAnd apparently the Modi govt. has sent feelers to the Japanese on whether they’d be interested in participating in the P-75I submarine project with the Soryu design..
India asks Japan if its interested in the Rs 50k crore submarine project
NEW DELHI: Russia, France, Germany and Spain, all better watch out. They may have to contend with Japan in the race to supply submarines to India. In keeping with their expanding strategic partnership, the Modi government has asked the Shinzo Abe administration whether it would be interested in the over Rs 50,000 crore project to build six stealth submarines in India.
With Japan recently ending its decades old self-imposed arms export embargo, New Delhi has forwarded “a proposal” to Tokyo to “consider the possibility” of making its latest diesel-electric Soryu-class submarines in India, say sources.
This “feeler” dovetails into PM Narendra Modi’s strategic outreach to Japan, as well as Australia and the US, since he took over last year. The possible sale of Japanese US-2i ShinMayva amphibious aircraft to the Indian Navy is already being discussed. Australia, too, is considering the Soryu submarines to replace its ageing Collins-class vessels.
…
BlackArcherInteresting several of the current posters were adement just a few months ago that the deal was definately happening when I said there was simply no money in the pot. Claimed I did not know what I was on about. Simple, no money = no deal.
No money, which is why the CCS approved Rs 1,00,000 crore worth of projects to build 6 SSNs and 7 stealth frigates just yesterday.
BlackArcherGood news for the IN ! 6 SSNs and 7 stealth frigates have been approved by the CCS.
The Cabinet Committee on Security on Tuesday sanctioned the country’s biggest naval project, the construction of seven stealth frigates for Rs 45,381 crore. Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL), Mumbai , will build four of these, while Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE), simultaneously builds the other three.
This project, dubbed Project 17A, follows on from the earlier Project 17, in which MDL built three 5,600-tonne frigates: INS Shivalik, Satpura and Sahyadri. The first of these, the Shivalik, entered service in 2009.
The timeline for Project 17A allows each shipyard a preparatory period of two years, in which they will prepare for construction and place orders for long-lead items like engines and transmission. Then they will actually build the warship over five years. The first two frigates would be delivered by MDL and GRSE in 2022, with the rest coming in pairs at one-year intervals.
The Project 17A frigates, while superficially similar to those build under Project 17, will pack significantly more punch with more advanced weaponry. The new vessels will be fitted with BrahMos cruise missile for land attack, and the new Indo-Israeli Long Range Surface-to-Air Missile (LR-SAM) that can shoot down incoming anti-ship missiles.
The main advance in Project 17A will be the “modular” method with which the frigates will be constructed. Traditional shipbuilding involved welding a hull together and launching it into water, after which swarms of craftsmen painstakingly work in the warship’s cramped compartments, installing propulsion gear, electrically equipment, weapons, sensors and hundreds of kilometres of pipes and wiring.
..
This method, being new, has required a foreign design partner. It has also required an extensive renovation of both MDL and GRSE, with each shipyard spending Rs 800-1,000 crore on modular workshops, with Goliath cranes, and workshops with sliding roofs from where 300-tonne blocks can be lifted out...
and
NEW DELHI: In a major step towards building a formidable blue-water Navy for the future, the Modi government has cleared the indigenous construction of seven stealth frigates and six nuclear-powered attack submarines, which together will cost well upwards of Rs 1 lakh crore.
The Cabinet committee on security (CCS) took these decisions in tune with the “critical necessity” for India to bolster its “overall deterrence capability” in the entire Indian Ocean Region (IOR), especially its primary area of strategic interest stretching from the Persian Gulf to Malacca Strait.
Under the over Rs 50,000 crore ‘Project-17A’ for stealth frigates, four will be constructed at Mazagon Docks in Mumbai and three in Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers in Kolkata. “The contract will be inked with MDL and GRSE this month itself, with an initial payment of Rs 4,000 crore,” said a source.
Both the defence shipyards are already geared up for the project because it’s a “follow-on” to the three 6,100-tonne stealth frigates built by MDL, INS Shivalik, INS Satpura and INS Sahyadari, which were inducted in 2010-2012.
The new multi-mission frigates will be larger, faster and stealthier than the Shivaliks as well as packed with more weapons and sensors to operate in “a multi-threat environment”. But it could well take a decade, if not more, to build all the seven frigates.
The complex project for the nuclear-powered submarines (SSNs) will take longer. After the CCS approval, technical parameters or naval staff qualitative requirements (NSQRs) will now be drafted for the over 6,000-tonne submarines.
The SSNs are likely to be constructed at the secretive ship-building centre (SBC) in Vizag, where India’s first three SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines with nuclear ballistic missiles) are being built to complete the country’s nuclear weapons triad.
The government has basically “reworked” the 30-year diesel-electric submarine-building plan, approved by the CCS in 1999, which envisaged induction of 12 new conventional submarines by 2012, followed by another dozen by 2030. But with no new submarine inducted till now, the government has decided to go in for six SSNs and 18 conventional vessels, said sources.
..
BlackArcherYes, and that’s why Tejas is the success-story that it is. :stupid:
Well it is a success story in the sense that India has managed to stand up an aeronautical industry after having nearly wasted all its experience post the HF-24 Marut. Hiccups, yes, delays, yes, but not a failure as you’d like to project it.
AND, HAL is not the agency that alone was responsible for the Tejas. If you don’t know much about who did what and when on the Tejas program, that really isn’t my issue.
BlackArcherSu-30MKI with the Brahmos ALCM on its centerline station on static display at AI-’15
image credit- Vishal Jolapara
BlackArcherGood point. If HAL is so reliable, why is a guarantee wanted from Dassault, for HAL’s work?
So as to not see delays on the part of the OEM that HAL gets penalised for later. Seen that on numerous projects where ToT didn’t arrive on time or didn’t arrive at all and eventually indigenous production was delayed.
Hardly expect you to understand that since in your opinion only HAL can screw up and all OEMs are gold standard.
BlackArcherBlackArcherIn France – relief on sale to Egypt
Questions remain on what undertakings France gave for securing the contract, as the Egypt deal is just “perfect,” a defense analyst said.
Hollande said on Feb. 12 that France had “made some effort” on prices and financing when the Egyptian officials came to Paris to discuss the arms package, France Inter radio reported. Hollande agreed to the essential elements with his Egyptian counterpart, Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, when they met at the funeral of the Saudi King Abdullah last month, the radio reported.
..
A big question on the deal is, who pays for the weapons, asked defense specialist Pierre Conesa. Has France or Saudi Arabia provided loans or underwritten the financing, he asked, noting the lack of details on the financing of the package.
The Egyptian economy has been under pressure for three years amid deep social unrest and a sharp fall in tourism. Human rights issues and the Army’s ejection of the government have raised concerns overseas.
Egypt will pay for half of the total deal using its own funds, with the other half financed by bank loans, the official said.The bank loans will be insured by Coface, the French state-backed export credit guarantee department, the official said. That 50:50 ratio of payment reflects the guidance set by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
The Coface insurance means the French government would repay banks and manufacturers if Egypt fell into payment problems on the loans.
..
So its perfectly reasonable and sane that the French govt. would repay banks and manufacturers if Egypt doesn’t pay its loans on time, but apparently it is too much to ask Dassault to assume any liability on the Rafale when it comes to HAL, which has been manufacturing jets for more than 5 decades now..they called that “a shortcut to bankruptcy” but apparently assuming responsibility for someone else’s payments isn’t a shortcut.
The size of the down payments would differ for the fighters, frigate and missiles as the amount depends on whether the platform is built. As the Normandie frigate is built, the down payment would be larger than the standard 15 percent.
The priority for Rafale production is the two-seater B model to form a second Air Force nuclear squadron, French procurement chief Laurent Collet-Billon told journalists on Feb. 9.
The first delivery of the Rafale for Egypt would be in 2018, as three years are needed to build the plane, Collet-Billon said. Once a down payment is received, the contract goes into effect, he said.
BNP Paribas, Credit Agricole and Societé Générale are the banks raising the bank loans for the Egypt contracts, French media have reported.
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and United Arab Emirates have pledged to deposit $10 billion in Egypt next month, according to news website Al-Youm Al-Sabea, Reuters reported on Feb. 5.
…
France plans to send over two or three fighters and the warship under Egyptian colors for the opening ceremony. The vessel will be the Normandie frigate, which DCNS built for the French Navy.
MBDA air-to-air Mica missiles and Aster 15 surface-to-air weapons for the frigate are part of the deal, a French official said. Maintenance is also included in the package.
Sagem’s Armement Air-Sol Modulaire, a powered smart bomb, is in the package, business daily Les Echos reported.
There is a contract for Lacroix, which produces decoy flares, specialist website Secret Défense reported. The Rafales will be capable of carrying the Black Shahine, an export version of the Scalp cruise missile, the website said.
France delivered the Black Shaheen to arm the Mirage 2000-9 for the United Arab Emirates, and limited the missile’s range to 350 kilometers to conform with the US Missile Control Technology Regime, a second official said.
The Rafale, frigate and missiles will be covered by specific contracts rather than a global contract, the first official said.
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BlackArcherWould be interesting to read the full article on Janes as well as the article by the ex PLAAF pilot.
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