BlackArcherEro Senin,
We don’t know that Rafale is 20% cheaper than Typhoon in India. There have been unofficial estimates, and these have varied from 10-25%. Official figures haven’t been released, and there’s still scope for lower bids from both contenders.
Seems like there isn’t scope for any new bids..India-Rafale decision final
The contract negotiation committee (CNC) opened Dassault Aviation’s bid proposing its Rafale on February 13 and identified the French OEM as the lowest bidder. The decision to involve another manufacturer is “procedurally untenable,” said Browne. “We have a procedure as per the defense procurement policy that stipulates the contract goes to the lowest bidder.”
The CNC, which gets into action once the lowest bidder has been identified, is scheduled to start price negotiations with Dassault from March 5. Discussions will be held on electronics, radar, transfer of technology and offsets.
Asked if he was satisfied with the Rafale selection, Browne said it was, “Brilliant! We got it at the best cost possible. The decision was based on performance and Rafale passed all qualifications.”
Doesn’t look like the IAF would be interested in any delays that might be introduced into the process. And allowing EADS to submit a new revised bid may not be procedurally possible.
BlackArcherBlackArcherVery nicely done Robban !
BlackArcherInteresting article on the MRCA, and the reason why the Rafale had a leg up over the others in the competition from the very beginning..
The Rafale’s long flight to India
Rajan Bhasin, then a young flight lieutenant and later one of IAF’s top guns, was in the first batch of eight pilots who went to France in 1984 to learn how to fly the Mirage 2000. He recalls, “The Mirage 2000 was a superb fighter. And the relationship with Dassault was always completely professional. We got the fighter we paid for; and we got the training we paid for. Whatever we wanted extra, we had to pay for it. But Dassault did not cheat.”
….It was the next stage of evaluation — flight trials — that has put IAF’s testing process in a league of its own. Conducted by the Directorate of Air Staff Requirements, and overseen by the quiet and unflappable Air Commodore (now Air Vice-Marshal) R K Dhir, each of the six contenders was flight-tested by IAF pilots on 660 separate performance aspects. For example, the RfP demanded that the fighter’s engine should be replaced within one hour. The maintenance teams actually made each contender do that. If IAF demanded a “sustained turn rate” (the quickness with which a fighter can turn around in the air) of 24 degrees per second, each fighter was physically put through this manoeuvre to establish that it met this requirement. (Incidentally, both the US fighters failed to meet IAF’s “sustained turn rate” requirements)
Air Marshal Barbora, who oversaw the flight evaluation process as IAF’s vice-chief, says that six teams of pilots, flight engineers and maintenance staff were mustered — one for each aircraft. Each pilot began by learning to fly the fighter he would evaluate, while the flight engineers and maintenance staff learned the technical ropes. The IAF pilots physically flew each of the contending fighters, albeit with a “home” pilot in the second seat. This was the first time that any air force has been allowed to conduct such a fly-off.
Last April, the ministry “down-selected” the Rafale and Typhoon, which meant that only these two aircraft had passed the flight trial evaluation. Now the game had changed; with performance established, the cheaper of the two was going to be adjudged the winner.
For the first time in India, costs were not compared on the ticket price alone, but on how much the fighter would cost to buy, build, upgrade and operate over a service life of three to four decades. IAF had clearly learned a lesson from the Russian MiG experience, where a cheap upfront price that seemed initially attractive led to enormous operating costs and a lower aircraft availability that meant that when IAF paid for six squadrons, it actually had just three squadrons to fly.Air Marshal (retired) Padamjit Singh Ahluwalia, who brought the first Mirage 2000s to India, says, “Russian fighters like the MiG-29 are great for air shows but serviceability is often a problem. When you get airborne, the radar often becomes unserviceable… sometimes this happens between two sorties.”
BlackArcherIs there any page that gives details on this Su-37 project, its concept and when it was conceived , etc? I didn’t even know such a project existed..why would Sukhoi develop another aircraft and name it the Su-37 Terminator?
BlackArcherA lot more pics of the different rigs and details on the N-LCA from the Tarmak blog
Tech Leap to future -Naval Aircraft
I found this detail on the re-certification of the LRUs to be quite new. Didn’t realise that this would be required.
The feature of launch and recovery onboard carrier was another herculean assignment to be managed. The flare-less landing with high sink rate of 7.1 m/sec and heavy thumping with engine to full throttle till arrested by deck cable, is akin to a controlled crash of the aircraft on the ship every time it operates. This yields five times of loading on main landing gear as compared to Tejas.
Sources say that in horizontal direction, the arrested shock recovery produces axial loads on aircraft structure of the tune of 4.5 g, calling for re-certification of all line replacement units (LRUs), components and associated systems of naval version to ensure fail safe operation repeatedly.
BlackArcherPAF F-7PG crashes. Pilot killed.
ISLAMABAD, 8 FEB: A China-made Pakistan air force jet today crashed while on a routine training mission in southwestern Balochistan province, killing the pilot.
“A F-7PG PAF fighter aircraft, while on a routine training mission, crashed 24 nautical miles north of Quetta (the capital of Balochistan),” a PAF statement said. The pilot was killed in the crash, the statement said.“No loss to civilian life or property on ground has been reported,” it said. The PAF ordered an official inquiry to determine the cause of the accident. The Chinese-made aircraft came down near Pishin, 50 km from Quetta, shortly after taking off from an airbase, TV news channels reported.
This was the fourth air force jet to crash in three months, media reports said. Two pilots were killed in recent accidents and a helicopter crash in June last year killed four military personnel.
BlackArchermore of David Cameron
British Prime Minister David Cameron on Wednesday said in the House of Commons that Eurofighter was not out of contention for the Indian Air Force fighter deal.
“I am very disappointed by what has happened in India,” Cameron said in reply to a question by Labour MP Mark Hendrick, who during the weekly Question Time pulled up the coalition government on the UK’s failure to land a contract from India for the Typhoon fighter jet.
However, Cameron said that the Eurofighter was still in the contention. “Eurofighter is not out of the contest yet and we need to reengage as hard as we can to make sure that we get the best deal for all those workers making Eurofighters in Britain.”
He dismissed the criticism that he had not helped the Eurofighter, which is built by a four-nation consortium of Germany, UK, Italy and Spain, to land the contract.
[b]
“All European leaders are actually backing the Eurofighter project. It’s a German project, it’s a Spanish project, it’s an Italian project, it’s a British project and that’s how it should be.”Labour MP Alison Seabeck raised the Typhoon issue again and asked Mr Cameron how many times he had spoken to the Indian Prime Minister about the bid. Cameron said he had raised the issue repeatedly.
“I raised the issue with the Indian Prime Minister repeatedly during my visit to India and indeed at the G20 at Cannes,” he said.
Eurofighter not out of contest-David Cameron
Maybe India should share the information on how much cheaper the Rafale was compared to the Typhoon. Then they’d stop cribbing about how India gets aid from the UK and still wants to buy the French jet.
BlackArcher@ BlackArcher : Swiss chose to change the criteria of the evaluation in order to select the Gripen based on price. Dassault said since the criteria has been changed, let’s submit our proposal based purely on price.
India is different. It was always performances first, then look at the cost.
But of course that won’t stop Eurofighter to try and submit another bid. But BAE which is spearheading to move will have to agree with Germany, Italy and Spain. While Germany might be convinced to go an extra mile, my prediction about the political will behind the Eurofighter collapsing if they lose India is happening with Italy refocusing on the F35 that is said to be cheaper.
And thing have only started to go bad the the EFT. I doubt their actual effort is going to go anywhere. Simply because they have done a political issue out of it, and it’ll look like India caving to UK’s pressure. They were supposed to have made a “sacrifice” on price already so how much money are the other countries willing to lose on a already very expansive program ?
Look, India requested both bidders to submit new bids and they have a certain validity period (say Dec 2011). If it so happens that Dassault comes back with a price that the MoD is not happy with and negotiations to reduce that price don’t work out by Dec 2011, then the validity period would’ve expired AND the MoD will request them to submit a new price bid. At such a time, the MoD might well be within its rights, legally so to speak, to examine the bid of Cassidian as well and re-evaluate its decision.
The Life Cycle costs calculation that the IAF did likely wouldn’t be changed, what would be changed would be the up-front acquistion and support costs that the OEM would be restricted to. The best way to avoid that would be for Dassault to not get short-sighted and drag negotiations like it did on the Mirage upgrade deal. The long-term benefits of winning in India would far out weigh any short term reduction in margins. I just hope that Dassault’s top bosses understand this and come into the negotiations with the aim to sealing it as soon as possible- and that wouldn’t be possible unless price concessions are made. The longer this drags, the worse the chances of it getting signed- since next year a general election is due, and once that happens, this may be relegated due to fears of corruption allegations derailing the ruling party’s winning chances.
ps: I guess none of the above will happen reading what the ToI article said about the cost differential between the 2 offers. I don’t know what Cassidian can do about such a HUGE cost difference !
BlackArcherImages of N-LCA from Tarmak blog
BlackArcherIf Eurofighter had a better, “winning financial proposal” they should have made that proposal when the bids were being evaluated. If India were to consider a new Eurofighter proposal and chose to go with Eurofighter, Dassault would then rebid, wouldn’t they?
Yes, they’d then be within their rights to do so I guess..but then what would stop Cassidian from doing another rebid ? This may well become a comedy of who can take a bigger loss at the beginning, and make up for it at a later date through after-sales support, training and what not..
It would perhaps save India some money but the resulting delays would work against the IAF. I’m hoping Dassault doesn’t screw the pooch by asking for too much when the final price negotiations begin.
BlackArcherfact is, India has given the rules, and Dassault won the right to “exclusive negotiations”.
Besides, the whole idea behind the defined date for opening of the bids is that no bidder shall be allowed to adjust his price based on his competitors one.
The result of it is that if India decided to bring the Typhoon back into the game for the MMRCA, it would be in violation of the rules they have decided to apply and contradiction with their statements about a transparent and fair competition, something that would allow Dassault, as well as all other bidders to contest the validity of it all. Already, SAAB tried to get back into the game and were turned down, I doubt Typhoon would have any chance even without the condescending declarations from various UK politicians, especially M. Cameron
Then why did Dassault offer a new financial offer for 18 Rafales for the Swiss bid? Doesn’t that undermine what the Swiss already did, viz. give the right for exclusive negotiations to the Saab group based on their own evaluation ? If the Swiss were to examine the new French offer, would that be considered not free and fair by Frenchmen?;)
This isn’t something new, and India would be well within its rights to examine a proposal that could save it money. Perhaps the govt. could ask Dassault to re-submit a financial proposal in view of the latest one that Cassidian has submitted. After all, India’s interest’s lie in saving every last buck on this deal and if they can push Dassault to make the offer as competitive as possible, they will do that.
Remember that the final and most crucial stages of negotiations are still to be done and it will good for India if Cassidian keeps hot on their heels. Dassault may not be able to drive up prices believing that India will have no other option. If negotiations enter a stale-mate, then a new, more competitive price offer from Cassidian may well be considered more viable. in such a situation, the Govt. will still be choosing an option that the IAF chose as a final contender.
BlackArcherStrange, but apparently Brazil wants India to share some information on its MRCA evaluations.
India to share its fighter selection experience with Brazil
NEW DELHI: In an unusual bilateral tie-up, India has agreed to share with Brazil some of its experiences of carrying out an open tender evaluation to select a fighter for the over $10 billion MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) contract. Brazil is presently in the process of selecting a fighter for its air force.
India conveyed its willingness to share some of its documentation on the MMRCA contract during a meeting between defence minister AK Antony and his Brazilian counterpart Celso Amorim.
“Brazil is in the process of buying a fighter jet. You have already reached the final stages of the fighter selection for the air force. They have promised to give us some documents on the selection process, such as basic rules on the tender process that we could compare to ours,” Amorim told TOI.
…
“Wherever there is a possibility we should always look for sharing of experience, of course while respecting confidentiality,” Amorim said. “Sharing of experience doesn’t mean we follow your decision,” he added. The minister also said they would be looking at discussing Indian experience of building a fifth generation fighter with Russia.Brazil is also providing India an exclusively developed catalogue of NATO military equipment, in which India was interested, he said.
What does the last sentence mean?
BlackArcherYou’re absolutely right, how silly of me, I got confused between India and Pakistan, it’s so easy. I mean generally speaking, they all look alike to me, can you tell the difference between the average Pakistani and the average Indian?
Anyway, you get the idea. It probably explains why I got confused between Iran and Iraq
You call this article proof of WMD and missile proliferation ? That way Germany must be one of the pioneers of WMD and missile proliferation..:rolleyes: Look at Pakistan’s record in this matter to see what real proliferation is. That is where your confusion arises from.:dev2:
Mind you, his statements pale into comparison to those of the former Pakistani PM Sharif, if the account true is true that is. I mean, did Sharif really believe he could sell the IAF some JF-17s?!! I guess that’s Pakistani politicians all over, they’d sell their own mothers if they could, little wonder why the country is in the state it is.
How about you do a comparison of the PAF of the 1950s, 60s and 70s as compared to today and see how many more sport beards. :rolleyes:
BTW, Islam doesn’t specify that a man has to grow a beard as a mandatory rule. Sikhism does. Even the IAF, a secular organisation, doesn’t permit adherents of any religion apart from the Sikhs, to sport beards. Calling that Talibanisation is nonsense.
BlackArcherNobody is saying the Typhoon is a bad aircraft , after all it passed IAF’s tactical flight evaluations.Particularly wrt air to air , I would keep it among top 5 aircraft operational today.But Jon Lake’s comments come across as condescending.
I would take Scorpion82’s opinions 365 days a year instead.Anyhoo…coming back to topic..
Seems like the French are going to have their hands full till the deal is signed..
UK team raises Eurofighter losing bid with MoDAlso there are reports of Bae considering a price cut…
So I guess it aint over until..and all that.
It could be good or bad for India and the IAF..such a threat will keep Dassault on tenterhooks and won’t allow them to extort money on the premise that the IAF has no options left. After all, the Rafale specifications and final cost are yet to be finalised. Dassault will also hope to close the deal quickly, rather than let it extend for as long as the Mirage upgrade talks did, the reason being that if the MoD senses that they are in a stalemate, then perhaps talks with Cassidian may begin. And that could scuttle French hopes in Brazil and UAE (unless they wrap it up earlier).
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