BlackArcherIt is not the credibility of EF GmbH itself, but the credibility of UK / German / Italy governments ~ I think that Mr. Jon Lake has explained this very clearly in one of his previous post.
Mr. Cameron declared that Typhoon is superb, and he will do his best to persuade IAF to change its mind and adopt Typhoon. However, because of his own government’s great decisions and well done in the past few years:
1. The Tranche I Typhoons for RAF will be retired after 2018.
2. The Tranche IIIB Typhoons for RAF may never be introduced.
3. The total number of Typhoon for RAF may be reduced to 107 or even less after 2019, and only God knows that how many Typhoons can still be remained in RAF at the time of 2030 ~ when Rafale will become the only manned fighter in FAF and FN.
4. The painfully ultra-slow pace for RAF to upgrade its own Typhoons, and the time for integrating AESA radar, Meteor BVRAAM, STORM SHADOW, Brimestone etc…..onto Typhoon still has no confirmatory schedule, not to mention CFT, TVC, EJ-2XX, or any aggressive project for RCS reduction or anti-stealthy technology.
If you were an IAF officer, would you have any confidence to Mr. Cameron’s declaration and slogan, after watching what his own government has done to the Eurofighter project in the past few years?
Agree totally- perhaps David Cameron could also convince the RAF that it is more worthwhile to go with the Typhoon and dump the F-35A altogether? They could use the money saved (after the penalties) to order more Typhoons. It would bring in much more jobs, restore the confidence in the Typhoon and then we could say that they are indeed putting their money where their mouth is.
After all, France isn’t buying F-35s and is perfectly happy with the Rafale as its frontline fighter for the next 30 years, while the RAF seems to only be reducing its Typhoon numbers while spending a huge sum on the F-35A.
BlackArcherNothing wrong in Mr Lake’s expression of “great potential” in Typhoon. IAF believed in that potential and that’s why EF managed to clear the evaluation criteria. I don’t understand how the credibility of EF GmbH ” is close to zero” just because they didn’t manage to make a sale. I am pretty sure Dassault didn’t lose credibility over the last ten years despite not making an export sale.
I agree. no one will say that the Typhoon doesn’t have a lot of potential. But no one (except David Cameron) will say that the Typhoon is either more advanced or more mature than the Rafale.
And most importantly, it is costlier than the Rafale, which at the end of the day is what skewered its bid, something that no commentator in the UK seems to explain clearly. Except to say that India went for the “cheaper but less advanced Rafale” with the insinuation being that it was a compromise..which is BS to say the least since it currently does more than the Typhoon can. Perhaps the articles should focus more on what makes the Typhoon so expensive and how they can make it more competitive for other export competitions, unless they can do a Govt. to Govt. deal like in Saudi Arabia and Oman, in which case I suppose price is not the biggest issue.
If only the reaction in the UK wasn’t so hostile and downright ridiculous, this bitter taste in the mouth wouldn’t have lasted so long.
BlackArcherWhat covert WMD and missile assistance to Iraq did INdia provide? Any links about it? or is it your fantasy? :rolleyes:
He probably got confused about the nefarious relations between our neighbour to the west and North Korea and a host of other nations. :rolleyes:
BlackArcherUh ? :confused:
Is it me or something is wrong there ?The rest of the article only reinforce what was known about the technical evaluation (no need for Gripen-NG and SH/Mig-35 coming too short) .
Good read mind .Cheers .
the respective bids were not opened till well after the final shortlisting had been done. So he is right- the IAF was not aware of which was cheaper, the Typhoon or the Rafale.
BlackArcherwell, he was advisor for saab and boeing and still, as far as I understood, he praises IAF’s professionalism and seems to approve the Rafale buy in that article (or I missed something?)
No, I must say that he is thoroughly professional in his article, where he actually stated that the Super Hornet and MiG-35 didn’t meet a number of the Qualitative Requirements of the IAF, but were cheaper and if they had been selected for the final round, either would’ve ended up in the IAF by default.
However, my advice was merely that since many retired officers become consultants for such firms as Saab, Boeing, etc. due to their unmatched knowledge on both airplanes, as well as the IAF, sometimes their writeups can favour whomever it is that they work for.
BlackArcherHere is the profile of Air Cmde Khokar.very Impressive.
http://in.linkedin.com/pub/parvez-khokhar/2a/431/b3b
Yes, very impressive CV, but to add a rider, Air Cmdr Khokhar served as a technical advisor (perfectly within his rights to do so) to Saab, Grob and Boeing. That might mar his opinion on competitors a bit.
I remembered his name and a funny incident where the former PM of Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif asked him if he was Indian or Pakistani (because he is Muslim). In the process, the former PM also said some other interesting things..:D
BlackArcherNo, more like:
‘We want them just like everything else in our armed forces including personell. We just don’t want to pay for them.’
In the UK wrt armed forces, the two words, ‘Spending’ and ‘Money’ don’t go down together. Ask any British soldier thats had his arms & legs blown off in Afghanistan & paid compensation. Government* ‘Sorry about what happened to you, but you’ve served this country well, we’re all proud of you! Heres some compensation….Actually, can we have that money back please, we need to give it as aid to a country with it’s own space programme. Thanks awfully.’
how many times does it need to be repeated that INDIA DOES NOT WANT YOUR AID !!! Even the Finance Minister has said that and it was revealed that when India asked that the aid be stopped, your own politicians wanted to continue it or they’d somehow “lose face”. 😡
Go petition your own politicians and stop dragging this thread down your “oh we give aid to India and it wants to buy French fighter jets”..the hypocrisy is just stunning on this issue!
BlackArcherWhy India chose Rafale. Article by KP Nayar, a former Diplomatic editor of the Indian Express and The Economic Times. Mostly deals with the strategic aspects of why India might have chosen the Rafale.
Telegraph India article on why India chose the Rafale
If the Russian plane on offer, MiG-35, had not clearly failed the tests, it was conceivable that it would very much have been in the reckoning. With the Russians out of the way, it did weigh with the political leadership in the defence ministry that France favours a multi-polar world and that India is a beneficiary of such an approach.
France won the bid for the entire order because it supplemented the requirements of the global tender with sweeteners that in the real world of strategic engagement, only three countries can offer India: Russia and Israel, in addition to France itself.
The collaborations that France has offered India in recent years in the field of intelligence sharing and upgrade are without parallel. Naturally, this is an area where co-operation cannot be publicised by the very nature of such engagement.
India and France face somewhat similar threats of domestic terrorism, vastly different from the threats faced by the US, Russia or even Israel. The assistance that Paris has offered New Delhi in preparing the country against such threats and the constant upgrading of their assistance went a long way towards creating an environment that favoured the French on the aircraft deal.
It was in direct contrast to Washington’s approach: the bulk of India’s intelligence community and key bureaucrats at decision-making levels believe that the Americans two-timed New Delhi on David Coleman Headley, their double agent in Chicago who played a major role in the Pakistan-supported terrorist attack on Mumbai in 2008.
In addition, spread across India’s entire political spectrum that includes much of the Opposition, is a firm conviction that India would not have come out unscathed from the decision to conduct the 1998 nuclear tests if it were not for the steadfast backing that President Jacques Chirac — and Nicolas Sarkozy after him — offered India in an hour of great need.
It is not widely known that during the Kargil war in 1999, the French approved with lightning speed the adaptation of Indian Air Force Mirages in tandem with equally speedy Israeli supplies of laser-guided bombs which they delivered in Srinagar: without such French and Israeli support, India could have lost Kargil to Pervez Musharraf’s perfidy.
No honourable Indian in uniform can forget that in such a situation, the US or Britain would have probably suspended all military supplies to the combatants to prove their bona fides as honest brokers for peace.Two of the countries which have been after the multi-role combat aircraft deal, the US and Britain, were at that time in the forefront of efforts in the Security Council to choke India into submission and roll back its nuclear programme.
..
Within the political and civilian leadership of India’s defence establishment, there has been no doubt that other things being equal, India should reward a friend in need, in this case, France.
BlackArcherI’m going to be the winner of the next batch of 60-80 aircraft for Indian Air Force – WHO AM I???
1) Rafale
2) MiG-35
3) Gripen-NG
4) F-16 Blk60
5) F/A-18E/FI have not included the EF-2000 Typhoon, because it is said (from the press) that the next selection process will be from those not in the final stage of the recently concluded contest.
The implication was never that the Typhoon won’t be allowed to submit bids. The implication was that ALL excluded contenders (which includes the Typhoon since it lost to the Rafale) would be allowed to submit new bids for the 80 new jets.
Anyway, I don’t believe there will be any such tender for a long time to come. The IAF will be fully absorbed in first getting the 126 Rafales.
BlackArcherI’m sure these sort of conversations have been going on among defence personnel for years. But I’m not expecting any changes at all. This is the same government that’s bailing out Air India’s gigantic debt with Rs 40000 crores of taxpayer money(which they call ‘equity infusion’) even though any and all attempts to make it profitable over the past 10 years(including past ‘equity infusions’) have failed.
For all the media hype about MMS the great economist, the Congress has always been Socialist-leaning in its policies. The employees of all these state-owned firms form a large and important votebank for them, and I doubt they would so much as dream of privatizing or cultivating private competition in the defence sector anytime soon.
So how well are Kingfisher and Jet Airways doing ? Are they PSUs as well?
BlackArcherWith my comprehension, in your view, the Rafale will replace Jaguar 1to1, ergo, there is a chance still remain to the Typhoon for replacing their Mirage2000 and MiG-27?
IAF’s Mirage-2000’s are undergoing an upgrade that will keep them in service till 2035
The first batch of two aircraft to be upgraded was sent in December to the Dassault facility at Istres in France where they have already been opened up for body strengthening and refitting. A complement of IAF and HAL engineers and technicians is now there for training under French supervision. Two more aircraft would be overhauled and upgraded at HAL Bangalore by Dassault and Thales, and after that, Indian engineers and technicians would take over but there would be French teams to assist them.
The aircraft upgrade programme also has a 30 per cent offset clause with the package involving ToT to India’s aeronautics major, HAL.
HAL is importing tools and required equipment under a $ 600 million deal – included in the package – and it would take some 10 years to virtually remanufacture the remaining 47 aircraft. It would have been cheaper, and faster in time, to get that done in France but the Government rightly has asked for ToT and training of Indian personnel so that it is easy to maintain the aircraft at home in future.
The Mirages, being upgraded to Mirage-2005 standard, should serve the IAF till around 2035. All of them would be capable of nuclear strike if there is a threat.
the MiG-27s will be replaced by the MRCA, viz. the Rafale. No chance of the Typhoon being in production or even an option as a replacement for the Mirage-2000 in 2035, is there? the IAF will have other airplanes (perhaps the AMCA) to replace them by then.
BlackArcherEvidence for that? Oh sorry you have none!
Stop spinning something that the Indian MOD deny! Both aircraft met the technical requirements to reach the final round. Both aircraft had advantages in different areas. Nothing has been officially released to avoid protests.
Stop persisting in spinning rumours that have no basis!
Evidence for what? the IAF’s preference of the Rafale? That was mentioned in the same reports that first mentioned that the Rafale had won since its unit price was $5 million less than that of the Typhoon.
the Indian MoD will deny it because they don’t want to upset the other competitor. They both met the technical requirements, yes, but that doesn’t imply that the IAF itself won’t have a preference for one over the other. If the Typhoon had been chosen, they’d still have taken it. Nevertheless, as things stand today for both platforms, the Rafale clearly meets the IAF’s requirements better than the Typhoon does.
BlackArcherIAF looking for more UAVs to its existing fleet
The Indian air force (IAF) is studying present and future requirements for unmanned aerial vehicles in its fleet.
“We are ready to induct more drones in view of their capability to perform specific tasks on the borders,” says IAF training command chief Air Marshal Dhiraj Kukreja. “We can have more of them if the government sanctions additional funds, as there is a cost factor to it.”
Acquisition of the latest combat aircraft and warfare systems, including drones and missiles, is a continuous process.
As a remotely piloted vehicle, drones are flown at borders for collecting information on adversaries and relayed for further action.
Israel manufactures a wide array of drones, including one of the largest and most advanced models in the world—the Heron TP Eitan—which costs an estimated $35 million.
With a wingspan of 26 meters (85 ft.) it is the size of a Boeing 737 passenger jet and can reach an altitude of 12,000 meters.
The IAF flies the Israeli-made Searcher II and Heron for reconnaissance and surveillance purposes.About 100 Searchers are in operation on Indian borders in western, northern and eastern regions.
The air force also operates Lakshya as a towed aerial sub-target for live fire training.
BlackArcherThere must be alternate purchases now in phases (as the planes come in) to purchase weaponry for them (unless that was a part of the deal as well).
Considering the deal for just for air to air missiles for the upgraded Mirage 2000’s, it seems to be a very nice and long term deal for France to sell complete range of weaponry to a new type.
What will the deal compromising of? the planes, the assembly line in India, training for air force and manufacturing seem to be there as defaults.
MBDA submitted a weapons package bid as well alongwith the Rafale’s bid by Dassault. So yes, that will also need to be negotiated. I think that phase will begin soon, with the IAF identifying what configuration Rafale it wants and what weaponry it would be interested in purchasing for that Rafale.
Since the MICA-IR/EM deal envisaged 30% offsets of which Bharat Dynamics Ltd. could be the prime beneficiary, perhaps they could licence manufacture the MICA at cheaper prices for the entire Rafale order.
BlackArcherOne of the most important requirement of IAF is low level DPSA provided by Jaguars. This capability is much valued and highly rated in IAF. I was wondering whether Rafale can do similiar low level DPSA???
It can do it perhaps the best of all the MRCA contestants and far better than a Jaguar can thanks to the terrain following and terrain avoidance modes in the radar (something that Jag lacks). the RBE2 can interleave modes that would allow a Rafale to use the terrain following mode while also engaging any air threats it may encounter.
as mentioned on the Rafale’s page
# Real time generation of three-dimensional maps for terrain-following above uncharted terrain in blind conditions. The RAFALE is the sole combat aircraft to currently propose such a function,
# Real time generation of high resolution 2D ground maps for navigation updates and detection, identification and designation of ground targets,
These are both priceless capabilities for a DPSA mission.
It has the OSF passive detection system that will allow it to detect and identify the target and also to find the range from the target and the SPECTRA suite to alert it to any radar, laser or missile launch threats that the Rafale may face on its way to the target. At least two of these are still not present on the Jag, though it has the good Tarang RWR now.
Developed by THALES, the “Front Sector Optronics” (FSO) system is fully integrated into the aircraft. Operating in the optronic wavelengths, it is immune to radar jamming and it provides covert long-range detection and identification, high resolution multi-target angular tracking and laser range-finding for air, sea and ground targets.
With its narrow field, the visible waveband capability is truly valuable to identify targets in situations where visual contact is required by the rules of engagement.
With 14 pylons of which 5 are wet (meaning long range) and IFR, it has both range and more than adequate payload capability to allow it to self-escort itself using MICA-IR/EM or Meteor at a later stage while carrying LGBs or cruise missiles.
It is the perfect replacement for the Jaguar (and that was one of the aims of the Rafale design itself), although that time has not yet come since the Jags in IAF will get another deep DARIN 3 upgrade.
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