BlackArcher$20b is understatement to put it mildly.
F-18E for Australlia is $6B for 24 planes and 10 year support.and those are 2006 prices. add 40% inflation for 2012.Rafale can never have F-18E production run.
Real cost will be closer to $60B for 10 year licensing, manufacturing, training and weopons.
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BlackArchernavy’s fighters will also be tasked to take care of the PAF mirage squadrons seconded for maritime duty, which are based out of karachi IIRC.
that is a part of their fleet defence duties. Eventually they’ll have to take on the JF-17 armed with the Chinese C-802 anti-ship missile, which will replace the Mirage Vs armed with the Exocet.
BlackArcherOn another hand, the UK wanted India to fund the AESA for Typhoon, A to G weapons integration, CFT, naval version, etc… all that for much more than the bunch of £ given in aid.
Wait- they said that it was “participation in developing the Typhoon further”..;)
That’s pretty cool seen that way: you give condescendently 1 b£ and you got the guy funding what you’re too brocken to fund yourself for 10 b£… seriously :rolleyes:
I’m pleasantly surprised that other Cassidian partner nations’ media and politicians are not raising as much of a stink as the Brits are.
BlackArcherMore nonsense from a Eurofighter nation’s press..this time from Germany..
who’s ever even heard of the Rafale fighter jet?
Experts already thought it was a done deal that India would purchase Europe’s prestigious Eurofighter fighter jets (who are these “experts”? :eek:) — if for no other reason than the fact that the purchase would have made India the fifth country in the EADS consortium, as the government in New Delhi had been promised. In a recent letter to her Indian counterpart Manmohan Singh, German Chancellor Angela Merkel wrote that India would become a “fifth partner country” next to Germany, Britain, Spain and Italy.Besides, who’s ever even heard of the Rafale fighter jet? French defense firm Dassault has unsuccessfully tried to sell its aircraft to Morocco, Brazil, Switzerland and the United Arab Emirates. In the end, though, not a single potential buyer bit. Outside of the French air force, no other country has any Dassault fighter jets in its fleet.
That’s why officials in Paris went out of their way to tout how well the fighter jet had served France recently during deployments in Afghanistan and Libya. For his part, 86-year-old Dassault Chairman and CEO Serge Dassault has publicly stated over and over again that he sells the “world’s best airplane.”
On Tuesday, India astounded experts by deciding in favor of the Rafale. The country is now planning to purchase a total of 126 fighter jets in a contract that will be valued at around $10 billion. The aircraft will replace the Indian air force’s older planes and will ultimately comprise one of the biggest deals in global defense history.
Observers in India also expressed surprise over Tuesday’s move. “We had assumed that the Eurofighter would be purchased because it would have enabled India to simultaneously befriend four European countries,” one Indian air force officer said after learning of the government’s decision.
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and some outright lies
Dassault had only remained in the running because government officials in Paris had intervened politically in New Delhi. Initially, the French had fallen out of the running — reports in India indicated they had made a poor offer. But in December 2010, French President Nicolas Sarkozy traveled to New Delhi, where he promoted the jet and pushed for a permanent seat for India on the United Nations Security Council as well as for India’s unrestricted access to nuclear technologies.
Poor offer?! What nonsense ! the offers weren’t even opened when the reports emerged that the Rafale was ejected from the competition..it was simply because they failed to give some information relating to anti-radiation missiles that the IAF wanted.
and more outright lies !
So far, all the negotiations Dassault has conducted with foreign governments interested in the Rafale have failed because the fighter jet has a tendency to require a lot of repairs and is thus more expensive to maintain and operate.
BlackArcherThere you go….exactly as I had mentioned that a large number of airframes are going to be available from the host country. In the case of the F/A-18 no less than 54 planes!!
I seriously don’t see why the French are complaining about “loss of jobs” – the Dassault line likely got at least some 40 extra planes plus initial 18 planes, not to mention all the subsystem guys got tons of spares etc orders assured for the first decade!!
Plus, the Indian AF orders mean a larger group of customers for the future upgrades of the plane. The IAF may ask for more capabilities and cofund stuff
Teer, I’d put it down to ignorance. Not knowing the details, and hearing that India would produce the Rafale along with ToT makes people complain. Most that are complaining are your average folks who haven’t the foggiest idea about what the benefits of such a deal would be for Dassault, the French govt. and for jobs in France.
BlackArcherOut of the 108 aircraft at least 40 will arrive from France?? are you sure?
is there any link confirming this?
in the forms of SKD and CKD kits. How hard is that to fathom? HAL will not be manufacturing Rafales from the ground up by manufacturing all the parts initially. They’ll get to that around the time the 30-40th Rafale is supplied. the pattern is there to see from the Su-30MKI and Hawk production lines.
BlackArcherThe ONLY negative for India will be if UK gov decides now to stop aid to India (which is a decision which is perfectly justifiiable in the round IMO) on the back of India’s choice for MMRCA rather than the objective facts.
And that wouldn’t have a negative impact on the UK’s business with India? In the long run, the UK has more to lose than India by making this an issue that would act as a thorn in their business ties. I doubt that UK’s politicians would do such a thing (although India doesn’t need UK aid).
BlackArcherSore losers..makes even the Americans look better.
Cameron opens fire on France’s ‘Asda option’ jet
Cameron leads the attack onIndian decision on Rafale
it amazes me to see that the UK’s people and politicians sense of entitlement, thinking that giving aid to a country gives them some sort of a hold over that nation. Gratitude my ass ! What about the 150 years of looting India? Should India have expected the UK to sell them weapons for free due to that ?!
Proves that this is not really aid- its money being paid to try and build up some sort of influence (aid would facilitate selling Typhoons to India ! so we should pay $15 billion plus for getting aid of around 1 billion pounds!). India should henceforth simply reject all aid from the UK. Let them keep their money and be happy.
While Cassidian maintains a more respectful tone
BlackArcherA quick political question, but would Hollande coming in make much difference? Clearly, judging by the ‘left leaning papers’, the Socialists would want to move production back to France. Whether or not he would have the temerity to try and force this?
move production back to France? Fat chance of that happening. the details of the RFP were known years ago, and both France and Dassault knew that India would assemble 108 MRCAs. If they didn’t like that, they should’ve pulled out. Clearly, they didn’t and went on to win the tender. No French govt. would be stupid enough to try such a thing and jeopardise the entire deal.
BlackArcher@BlackArcher
Maybe, unless they don’t think it’s worth doing as they’d rather focus on domestic production of something else?
Unlikely to happen. Domestic production of the Su-30MKI is scheduled to end in 2017. After that, the entire focus will be on the MRCA and Tejas Mk2 assembly lines.
The Tejas Mk2 is anyway going to be manufactured almost entirely in India (even its F-414 engine will be assembled in India). For the MRCA I’d fully expect the IAF to buy additional Rafales and even if not, the numbers are large enough to allow fully domestic manufacture from the raw material stage. This MRCA contest was all about extensive ToT and allowing HAL to gain experience in manufacturing a 4.5th generation fighter which would help it in the future when the FGFA and AMCA would be inducted.
BlackArcherIf only air combat was as easy as looking at a plane’s specs on paper and declaring that it will win EVERY time in EVERY possible scenario!
The Rafale may not win against the F-16 Block 52+ every time but it’ll do it enough times to turn the course of a war.
BlackArcherLOL!! China have rcs model of Rafale several years now and have close relation with France. France likely can provide data on Rafale like they did Mirage. Rafale is old design from 80s, J-10 is newer design and J-10B have AESA radar and entering service. How long will it be before India get their own Rafale? they are behind already by ten years. J-20 already is enough to defeat Rafale and Indian pakfa
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BlackArcherIndia will assemble the plane so Dassault production line is still going to work on the part to be assembled.
At some point, the Rafale will be produced from raw material stage in India itself. Initially they’ll assemble the Rafale, but like in the case of the Su-30MKI, they’ll get to doing it nearly entirely by themselves at some stage.
BlackArcherKind of. But really, Dassault is outsourcing production and transferring technology to India. On the front end, that’s great money for Dassault, and no doubt some work for Dassault engineers. But over time, it’s not really much of a job creator for France. And if the deal includes provisions to allow Indian-made Rafales to be sold outside India, like the Brazil deal did, then it’s even worse for French industry.
its more than just some work. Its a lot of work. The entire Swiss offer by Dassault was for 18 fighters and the MRCA deal involves Dassault building 18 themselves in France. And for a large number of SKD and CKD kit assembled Rafales later on, they’ll still be supplying a large portion of the parts. This will generate a lot of work for Dassault, Thales and their suppliers.
BlackArcherThey would have felt much happier if all 126 fighters would be manufactured in France .
Then the French govt. should have placed the order for its own Air Force. 😉
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