AlphaZuluIt would be very nice if you could post some scans 🙂
Hi Danell
Sorry for answering late…
I’m not sure posting scans of a magazine on the own magazine’s editor webboard is a wise thing to do. :rolleyes:
Anyway, below are two short quotes from Grandclaudon’s ITW about the two topics discuted here.
Typhoon & Rafale : The french 1/7 CO confirms what the RAF said regarding the ATLC waves : then, both Rafale & Typhoon flew Blue Air. However :
During DACT […] we shared Red Air & Blue Air, and the ratio was pretty fair. We spent our first week in Al Dhafra doing Red Air versus Typhoon […] The results I gave out [4:0 & 3:1] were when two Rafale took on four Blue Typhoons with a pair of simulated AA-10C Alamo on board. […] We simulate the AA-10C most of the time when we play Red Air.
I should not have given the results, because we were only training assets for RAF pilots, still growing on the Typhoon, but I was so proud of the skills of my pilots and the level we have reached on Rafale, that I did. The threat that we simulated was of course more dangerous than a real MiG-29 or Su-27 because, even if we played the “AA-10C ATLC SOP model”, shooting only at one target at the same time, we enjoyed the benefit of our system as far as situation awareness was concerned.
Raptor & Rafale :
I did not say we “rubbed them” [the raptors], I said that there was only one shot claimed (i.e. a simulated kill) for the six that were set up. [follow the story about A&C mag claiming not one but 2 kills for the Raptor]
As far as I’m concerned, one or two shots of six BFM encounters is a victory for the F-22, but not an overwhelming one. Not like the one we claimed against the Typhoons afther combat in Solenzara, Corsica, during September (9 set-up: 8 to 1 for the Rafale). The other set-ups versus F-22 were terminated for combat deck, an un-decisive situation or lack of fuel. We never shot them down […]
Cheers,
Az’
AlphaZulu@ Arka : Méf, “actually” is a false friend for french speaking people, and it gives your sentence a different meaning.
So, those Mirage 2000-9 : “are offered” or “will be offered, as soon as the Rafale deal is secured, unless the french gvt finally decides to include them in FAF, as a mean to postpone/cancel some of its own Rafale orders (which would be short view politics, but…)” ??
About the F1 going to the US : I agree, those are Mirages. But I assume jackjack was speaking about 2000s, for it’s allegated (?) that a M2000 with a french pilot had an F22 in its gunsight in BFM (according to this patch), which is, by the way, in contradiction with the US statement saying that the Raptors flew undefeated, against all opponents (unless this statement only applies to ATLC, and the above-mentionned encounter took place out of this exercice ?)
++
Az’
AlphaZului’ve just had a thought about why all of a sudden their are stories about the mirage getting a gun on the f-22, something the rafale didnt and goes against the claim that no one got a kill on the f-22
isnt france getting some old mirages they need to sell ?
😀 And for trying to sell old Mirages, France will insist (invent ?) a story glorifying its ‘old’ plane, when at the same time (and in the same prospect/customer country) its ‘new’ plane is to be sold ?? I cannot see the logic there… Any help ?
(BTW : AFAIK, the answer to your question is no, no “old Mirage” are offered on the second hand market at the present time)
Cheers,
Az’
AlphaZuluThe Big Fight
Jon Lake looks into the sixth annual Advanced Tactical Leadership Course (ATLC) held at the United Arab Emirates Air Warfare Centre at Al Dhafra Air Base.Justifiably Proud
Lt Col Fabrice Grandclaudon, who led his Rafale squadron to the ATLC, responds to the claims and debate raised in ‘The Big Fight’ article.http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/view_issue.asp?ID=741
can’t wait ..;)
Just got it ! 🙂
Very interesting ! Some (a lot of ?) questions discussed here found their answers.
JL’s article describes the whole ATLC, with its 1st part dedicated to the press conference with Lcl Grandclaudon just after the exercise, and what can be (counter-) said about its claims.
Then, the interview of Lcl Grandclaudon, who reviews in details claims & counter-claims, giving more precise data, exemples… & explainations.
he seems to be saying the french line and is in dispute with the usa who said the f-22 won 6-0
Sorry, sir, but AFAIK, the USA never said the f-22 won 6-0.
The US pilots said :
I don’t remember the fights quite that way.
In every test we did, the Raptors just blew the competition out of the water.
I’m quoting JL’s article, who adds that the 27th Sqn CO also said that the Raptors flew undefeated, against all opponents.
French side said that Rafale was defeated only once (or twice) on 6 encounters.
Assuming the 5 (or 4) other set-ups were “terminated”, as stated by the french 1/7 Sqn CO, for “combat deck, an un-decisive situation or lack of fuel” : The Raptor still was undefeated.
Therefore, facts as reported by US & French sides cannot be opposed : it fits !
What differs seem to be the analysis :
– US CO said : we “just blew the competition out of the water“
– French CO answers : “one or two shots of six BFM encounters is a victory for the F-22, but not an overwhelming one” (and giving an example of what is an overwhelming victory in his mind, with a Rafale 8-1 Typhoon claim during an exercice at Solenzara (Corsica) last september).
Cheers,
Az’
AlphaZuluEnfer et damnation !
You’re right Taygibay, neither Secret Défense nor Air & Cosmos say if the Rafale-Typhoon encounter was part of the official exercices or not… Thanks for pointing this out, I’ll edit my previous post, then.
I relyied on #750 post of this very same topic. Toocool : did U got a source I forgot to cross check here, when answering Taygibay ?
Cheers
Az’
AlphaZuluThe thing is Blue Air in multi national exercises clearly doesn’t use all its capabilities hence my cynicism over the stated results.
Sure ! But at last, blue air is supposed to win.
Anyway, more recent posts enlighted the fact that the Rafale-Typhoon combats took place (as far as we know) besides the official exercises.
Therefore, never mind my post about blue/red air, it’s not applicable in a “just for fun” environement.
[edit] sorry, as pointed out in the next post, data in pink need to be sourced outside this board. In the meantime, don’t take statements in pinkas trustful guestimation.
Cheers,
AlphaZulu
AlphaZuluDoes anyone think the recent meeting’s of Rafale with Raptor, typhoon etc has something to do with the recent announcement of the French AWACS getting upgraded?
I don’t. Such upgades are already planified/prepared a long time before a contract/order is signed : I heard about it when visiting the french AWACS airbase in 2006 & 2008.
anyone know what the upgrade will do? Will this make the French fleet better than NATO, UK, Saudi and US fleets?
Sorry, I can’t remember accurately, but public sources are available (press, websites…). They were (at last) two upgrades under way, regarding :
– mission system (radar…) (IIRC this is the one recently announced)
– vector systems (new avionics)
What if the Typhoons were acting as Red force with intentionally limited tactics and systems use? The whole point of Red force is to die!
Agreed for the point of Red Air. 🙂
But… The initial statement was : 4-0 then 3-1 with “limited weapons” for the Rafale.
Unless I’m seriously mistaking, Blue Air “plays” with its own, “real” strengh (capabilities ; except for those you don’t wanna show to you allies/comrades/customers/…).
On the other hand, Red Air “plays” the role of a defined opponent, for example : “today, you’re red air, and you simulate Flankers armed with Alamo A”.
Then, if one side “limits” its weapons capabilities, doesn’t that mean that this side plays Red Air ? And faces a “full capability” Blue Air ?
Wondering…
Cheers
Az’
AlphaZuluI was not aware that Damocles had not been used by Mirage 2000 in Afghanistan, if indeed that is true.
It is. M2000D use ATLIS II (day) and PDL-CT/S (night) when operating from KAF. About those, it’s clear that it isn’t Litening 3. It isn’t Sniper. That I agree.
Damocles is indeed used on the french navy’s SEMs, with GBU-49.
I don’t know if Litening 3 or Sniper are better than Damocles. Sniper should, but Litening ? I’ve read contradictory data on that point.
Cheers
Az
AlphaZuluHi 🙂
Hypothesis : France / Dassault secures a deal with UAE for new Rafales, part of the deal includes Dassault to “take back” current Mirage 2000-5/-9 of the Emirates.
In this case, those Mirage are more likely to be sold on the second hand market than to be incorporated in France’s AdlA (which seeks for more Rafales, too).
Would Romania be interested in such a purchase ? UAE’s Mirage are not “too” worn out (at last those of the second batch), they have mutlirole capability and are relatively “low cost” planes (single engined…)
IIRC Romania already uses (used ?) french aircrafts (or french designed aircrafts, such as the Alouette III which is/was also locally produced).
Would it be an interesting deal vs the others options (F-16 old / new / mixed, second hand Gripens… etc.) ?
I do think so, but what about specific requirements (weapons capability) ? What about politics ?
Cheers
Az.
AlphaZuluRight 🙂
I suppose defencenet didn’t note F2s have been upgraded to F3s now.
Or perhaps the video was made before the upgrade was completed.
Cheers
Az
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