Originally posted by plawolf
[Boh, did u do a refferandum to ask them?:rolleyes:

if the vast majority wanted democracy, then why dont u give it to them instead of having a US hand pick pupet gov to rubber stamp everything? :rolleyes:

and why exactly did the US choose to take out his top ppl? could the little fact that he is a well known and widely respectly iraqi figure who supports an iran style islamic republic have anything to do with it?:rolleyes:

last time i check, democrasy is not about first killing off or imprisoning everyone who has a different view point and then asking the ppl left to vote for one candidate. (does the 99.99 ‘approval’ rate saddam got before the US invaded come to mind?)
[/B]

No, but opinion polls in Iraq, conducted almost daily, are very consistent in their findings. More than half say they are better off NOW than before the war, and much more expect a better future. Over 75% say attacks against coalition forces are unacceptable. While more than half of iraqis feel the war humiliated Iraq, only 10% want the coalition to leave NOW. that speaks volumes. They understand the need for the troops, and are expressing how they felt about being invaded. the “inconsistencies” between how they “feel” and what they want are the most telling information in the polls, and is exactly what I thought they would feel like. Upset about being invaded–it’s embarassing to a proud people–but understanding of the situation.

Apparantly, I had misread the poll results. Democracy is only abot 50%, I had misinterpreted the results showing that only 10% favored an Iran style theocracy to mean that 90% wanted a democracy. I hadn’t known there were other options.

Oh, and to clear something up about the arrests of the Clerics to people–they were arrested(by iraqi police, I thought) because they incited violence, and murdered another cleric, who did not call for violence. I would say the fact that he is supported by Iranians, possily funded by them, murdered another Shiite cleric who worked WITH the coalition, and lied to his followers to get them to attack coalition forces, I see no reason why he is still alive. These are the people you TRY to kill in a war. His followers are not that many–some 3,000 in a city of 3 million. They just dress up and march with guns, holding up pictures of him.

By the way, if people march in the street, and hold up giant pictures of you, to show their support, there’s a pretty good chance you’re evil. Just like if you have a statue made of you, and you’re still alive…or if your picture’s on the currency(and again, you’re not dead yet)…all signs of potential evil…

I can’t think of any example of this withut thinking “evil person”.
Saddam, Stalin, Arafat, dead-wheelchair-bound Hamas sheik, Imperial Japan… North Korea…
I’ve seen many people holding up pictures of this sadr cleric, which is always a good sign of evil…just an observation…not to be taken too seriously.

Perhaps you misunderstand my idea of brainwashing.

The NAzis were, in a large part, believers in their superiorities. The German soilders may not have been, but they sure as heck followed orders, as any soldier would. And when following orders from Nazis, what do you expect?

Like I had said, versailles was an impetus, Hitler made them follow him, as a way out of depreavity, and they believed him, followed him, and fought for him.

Just like these sicko clerics, they have a following, who they promise salvation. The people follow them, to the point of suicide, for they truly believe that this PERSON is their salvation.

Brainwashed is perhaps too strong a term, but it conveys the message. If you’re wlling to die for somethig a man says, I say brainwashed. The JApanese were brainwashed to thinking their emperor was a living God. Who would deny HIM?

Hitler promised(and initialliy elivered) salvation to the germans, he was charismatic, just what they WANTED. They became so enthralled with him, they believe everything he said to be true, and followed him to their destruction.

Originally posted by Distiller
Too late!

Iraq isn’t going that bad – overall. But a bodycount of 66 : 12 isn’t good either. Ramadi should be firebombed to the ground. That’s the problem with Americans. Too good hearted. Don’t want to hurt nobody. But them folks in Iraq should be made very clear, that it is either submission or annihilation. But I know only too well, that this administration don’t has the balls to send in a wing of B-52s one of these nights and finish it once and for ever. And the next night Fallujah, and so on. Arabs would understand that kind of language.

Actually, the 12 were lost in a surprise attack on a marine position, by over a hundred fighters. This proves they need to keep their eyes open, and stay vigilant.

In the recent Fellujia raids, when they WENT in to WIPE out the “gad guts” no marines were killed. The Urban fighting is where we “expected” to see themost casulties.
I know, firebombing will work, but that’s hardly something we’d want to explain to the world. It’s like, we tried for a year, we got frustrated, so we just hit Ctrl, Alt, Delete on them…

[QUOTE]Originally posted by plawolf
[B

so, let me guess, in ur last post u were suggesting that only americans donate stuff are u? if thats what u believe then theres no point is dicussing anything with u. :rolleyes:

No, you said “why is everything coming from America”, I was talking about donations, you, seem to have been referring to buisness.

er……NO. :rolleyes:

The vast majority of Iraqis WANT a democratic state,and WANT to see it through. Only a few thousand people are fighting right now, and they are mostly Sunnis, Shiite followers of that cleric murderer, or foreign terrorists. Do you know WHY the cleric’s milita started an “uprising?” Because many of his top men were arrested last week. He lost his top people, so he’s in a last ditch effort to get a theocracy. HE had no other choice, either be arrested with his men, and fall into memory while rotting in IRaqi jail, or stage a “rebellion”. Not unexpected after the arrests.

The Sunnis are in a similar position to white south Africans when Apartheed was over. They had ALL the power, now, because of numbers, they have very little. The sunnis don’t want that, so they resist. Coupled with the fact that quite a few sunnis were involved with Saddam’s persecution of the shiites, they have reason to fear.

:rolleyes: is that why millions of vietnamese died fighting an enemy that outmatched it in every feild but the willingness to die for what they believed to be worth fighting for?:rolleyes:

I was referring to the South vietnamese peasents, who could care less who ruled them,as long as they could grow rice, raise children, and live on. If they gave a rat’s A$$ what kind of government was in the cities, they sure didn’t show it. It resulted in a lot of americans becoming frustrated with them. They were trying to preserve their freedom, but they were happy with the life they had, they would rather be alive than free. Their choice. Americans saw that as pretty sad, and looked down on it.

The Iraqi people ACTUALLY want the freedom offered them by a democratic government. The average vietnamese wanted to live alone, not caring who was in power.

Originally posted by seahawk
People need to be ready for democracy and those people are not ready yet. As the germans were not ready for democracy yet after WW1.

Anybody care to remember exactly HOW democracy came to the germans? Through what methods?

Let’s see… Dictator in power, Americans and British invade….yeah….Dictator and evil fascist party removed from power….England and America rebuild Germany….hmmmm….bring in supplies, in defiance of large, hostile forces….
Germany rebuilds….grows, becomes one of Europe’s most pwerful economic and military powers. No Major european war in 60 years…

Originally posted by seahawk

And that is what I mean, americans always believe that there always is a cure to a problem. But some times there is no simple and quick solution.

No, that’s what you percieve. Nobody thinks there’s any one solution. However, without education, they’re bound to stagnate, and fall into poverty, and suffering. Education will give the ABILITY to save themselves,a nd better their own lives. With education, they stand a chance.

What caused the Germans to fight so fiercly? Elitisim. They were made to believe they were superior to other people, and were destined to control the world. Just like the Imperial Japanese, they were BETTER than the people they fought.

How did this happen? After WWI, the reparations caused much suffering in Germany, and impoverished, unhappy people, not totally in control of their own life, will seek a scapegoat. Germany blamed the Jews, and the rest of the world, becasue of the treaty of versailles’s reparations. The german people were brainwashed into believing their own superiority. From there,it’s not hard to see why they fought–they were BETTER than their enemies.

Militant islamists believe their culture is superior to western culture. So much so, they believe that western culture is an affront to god, and god wills it’s destruction. While they were educated, the 9-11 terrorists STILL believed what they were doing was good.
Look what the Nazis tried. Is there any doubt that the terrorists are any LESS determined?

Originally posted by google
I’m not sure that the US’s line of thinking is any different from the terrorists. In one hand, the terrorist grabs a bomb and in the other, the Koran. How is this different from the president calling for invasion against a country, and in the next breath saying, ‘God bless America.’? This is arrogant, assuming that God will bless America and America only. Who is man, to request such blessings?

While I have no doubt your words are sincere, ‘Seriously, I would risk my own life to save the live of a terrorist’s child’, I think that you might not say the same in all circumstances, e.g. not behind a computer at work somewhere.

While the mullahs and clerics have no doubt perverted their own religion, we need to consider their point of view. What would you be saying if Iraq came over to the US and deposed President Bush and killed 13,000 civilians in the name of collateral damage and democracy?

I think you’re misinterpreting what he said. God bless america is a song, and the line is something we say, a sort of a prayer.
There is nothing wrong with praying for strength. Praying for te deaths of our enemies, praising the loss of life, or sheer joyusness over the sufering of others is a totally different thing than praying to God asking for blessings.

Asking God for blessings, and exclaiming that death and suffering of others ARE blessing from God are totally different things.

I think the figure of 13,000 is probably way stretched, but that’s besides the point.

Well, nobody’s going to come over and depose the president. If the president was worth being deposed, the people that would do it would be US.

IF I lived in a country where the leader had ultimate power, and ruled with an iron fist, and invaded other countries, and defied the UN for a decade, I wouldn’t be surprised when it happens. I’;d be happy he was faling, but upset that foreign troops were in my country, if just for my pride alone. Most people understand that

Originally posted by skythe
Do you define their areas of interest? What happens when their areas of interest overlap yours, in Turkey for instance? What happens if they decide Europe is in their sphere of interest? Heck, why go that far, my car runs on fuel, what do your car run on?

I was planning to stay out of this–you know, an American talking about OIL, man do we just LOVE oil!

Protecting Saudi Arabia frm Saddam was an important enough issue to justify the first gulf war. If Saddam took over the oilfields of SA, the American economy would crash. It would not destroy us, but it would hurt us REALLY bad. So much, that it was financially sound to remove the threat by means of force.

Hopefully, our dependance on oil will lower. Hybrid vehicles are a great first step, getting 50% better mileage. If, hypothetically, 50% of the new vehicles purchased over the next decade are hybrid vehicles, we could get by with NOT importng oil from the MidEast AT ALL.

the problem with fuel cells is cost, as they’re too young a concept. they might be the future, though.

Electric cars are a waste, since quite a bit of elcetrisity comes from burining oil and coal…
If we went more nuclear, electric cars would be a great way to go.
although performance is an issue–most americans commute, and traveling anywhere in this place requires lots of distance.

When I see my in-laws, it’s 250 miles away, up in the mountiains. A pure electric car won’t cut it.

Hybrid cars actually work BETTER than pure gas powered cars, not only more range, and mileage, but more power, and much longer life, since systems wear less, they should last nearly TWICE as long as conventional vehicles…

Hybrid cars for everyone! Free us from the financial hold of our enemies!