ManonthefenceI hope to be able to make it.
ManonthefenceSeeing as I cant actuall see the hills between Oxford and Brize at the moment, and I am on the top of County Hall facing Brize!
I’d be surprised if it happens.
ManonthefenceAF
Dont ever change mate, keep telling it how it is 😉
ManonthefenceI have been fortuinate enough to to fulfill many dreams and fly in many old aircraft this year. I have flown over Whiteman AFB in a Sea Fury and taken air to air photographs of a Skyraider and flown from a Battle of Britain airfield in a P-51.
However it all pales into insignificance when compared to the loss this forum has suffered this year.
Steve Young RIP.
ManonthefenceLoad of Bull as usual Melv (back of the net!)
G-KAPW
Ah I get it, G-MOOS is also registered to the same owner. I am confusing everyone methinks.
ManonthefenceStringbag
The Piston Provost is now owned by The Shuttleworth Collection.
ManonthefenceYou look old…………………………and ugly!
ManonthefenceSo’s ML407, and kills by a New Zealander IIRC. Where was Carolyn Grace from again?
And your point is? I think I covered this in the remainder of my post, which you have chosen not to quote.
Its a global village people. Get used to it.
ManonthefenceThis is very sad news.
A few words about Art from a friend of mine, I was asked if I would post this anonymously
He was
what every warbird pilot wanted to be…cool under pressure, low key, level
headed and funny, with a VERY dry sense of humor. I remember talking to him
at Reno about Matt Jackson and how he was upset about being called for the
pylon cut and thought it unfair. I told Art I was going to give him the
pole in the Sunday race, to which Art said, “**** him, it’s just whinny baby
crap”. Art spent several evenings on the phone with me going over the finer
points of air racing, and really went out of his way at Reno rookie school.
I remember being upset about my airplane being down with a bad fuel pump at
Reno in June and thinking I wasn’t going to get my race license. Art took
me aside and told me not to worry, that air racing needed younger guys who
would race and return to keep the sport alive.Art also told me that Reno is the most dangerous flying we’re likely to do,
and he described it as “reasonably dangerous”. “You need to be prepared to
accept that this is an endeavor in which people die”, he said to me.After I finished my Commercial Pilot’s License I asked Art if I should send
a copy to Reno right away, or wait until we got to the air races. “****
them, I never send any information to RARA. It’s none of their goddamn
business what my paperwork looks like. You’re an Unlimited Air Racer now,
so you had better get used to being a bit of an elitest. This isn’t the
Sport Class.”Several years ago Art bailed out of a burning Corsair at a few hundred feet,
coming down almost on top of the wreckage. He said that in hindsight he
probably stayed with the airplane too long, but thought it was pretty tough
to know when exactly too long was when you were sitting in a burning
Corsair. His bailout procedure that he taught me was the 3
asses…plexiglas, harness, my ass. I asked him if I should take a jump
class to learn about parachutes, as I know nothing about them. “Ever watch
a John Wayne western?”, Art asked me. “Sure”, I said. “Well then, you know
everything there is to know about killing Indians, don’t you.”, which he
said while pretending to shoot an imaginary six gun. “OK Art”, I said, “I
get it”.Thanks again for letting me know about this. Sorry to wax on, but it seems
to help put some closure to the loss of a friend. So many people told me
that Art was such a tough ass, and hard to get along with. I found him to
actually have a very soft side, which he hid well.
Blue skies Art, blue skies.
Manonthefencea stuffy bunch of insular grey haired old men who have been confined to the smokey drawing room of your London club for too long.
I’m one too.
I also think Legends is great, but discussing it for the next season before this season is over pushes it a bit far. What ever happened to the joys of being surprised!
ManonthefenceI have just spent 20 minutes searching the web, can find no mention of the Pilots name.
Can someone please confrim that this has been released (nothing on WIX either yet)
I have an appreciation of the pilot to post, sent by a frienbd. I dont want to do so until it has been publically confirmed who he is.
ManonthefenceSorry to ramble
Don’t thank me, thank the rude guy from offshore. I apologise, he started it!
Accepted mate 😀
he Waverly Criteria will only effectively apply to airframes such as Alcock & Brown’s Vimy, the E-28/39, Amy Johnson’s ‘Jason’ etc, as specific airframes with a single achieveement in their own right.
Exactly, otherwise any old aircraft would become liable. The international trade in Warbirds which has brought us so many great aircrasft would effectively cease.
What about the P-51C, its important and the lasty of its type in the UK. Lets stop that being sold as well.
It’s just ludicrous to argue that most of this stuff is historic to the UK and Sally B is less so
John that is not my point. Whether or not parts have been replaced or not is immaterial. The aircraft (c/nxxxxxxx Reg G-BEDF etc) is not historically significant enough in itself to be subject to the criteria. That doesnt mean that its not important but it has no direct connection to the UK other than its been here a long time.
Send her down under and we will happily look after her
Its a free market. However she will be no more or less historically significant as an airframe in Aus than in the UK.
Sally B has a longer and more integrated history with the UK than any other B-17 ever. She has starred in a British TV series, an Anglo-US produced Film, is flown by a British crew, etc, etc. History is still being made by that airframe. 30 years of commemoration of the 8th. A UK airshow with ‘only’ PA474 is ‘only’ telling half of the strategic bombing offensive’s story.
We are again in total agreement, but that doesnt make SallyB fit the criteria.
Whjat happens if another B-17 is brought into the UK and SallyB goes, what happens then?
Well Just think about the cost of operating the Sunderland and sally B plus a few other UK historic aircraft and then think about the costs being poured into the Vulcan – misplaced priorities?
Nail, head , bang!!
When MH434 heads for New Zealand, there’ll be howls, but there’s nothing to keep it in the UK that will stick, I’m afraid. Except money.
Actually there is, and its nothing to do with her display history. She is a known combat veteran and has kills to her name. That said I think the Criteria would only apply if she was the last of her type in the UK. That said I think market forces should prevail.
ManonthefenceSally B is the only flying representation of the American Air Forces in Britain. Social historians put the 1943 ‘friendly invasion’ of the US services as one of the biggest changes British society had in the twentieth century. So, yes, one of the criteria could fit fine.
I totally disagree, The aircraft has no significant combat history and is not a product of British Engineering, as an airframe it is no more significant to British History than the Wright Flyer. As a flying Memorial it is very important (a fact the operators seem to have forgotten) and as such is very important, BUT it falls outside of the scope of the Waverly Criteria. It is also not the sole example of the type in the county
Let us review the criteria
1. Is it so closely connected with our history and national life that its
departure would be a misfortune?
No, as a type, possibly but not this particular airframe
2. Is it of outstanding aesthetic importance?
No, it looks nice though.
3. Is it of outstanding significance for the study of some particular
branch of art, learning or history?
No, its not in its original condition, has no direct ties to the UK and isnt the sole example of its type, the two other examples, whilst also not being in original condition, are more representative of the type.
Now the point could possibly be pushed if SallyB was the last of its type in the UK.
Just because they weren’t British armed forces does not mean that they aren’t critical and integral to the history of Britain. History shouldn’t be about noticing the bits you want to and ignoring the bits that don’t fit your prejudices. It’s a messy business, and by definition has to encompass the activities of allies and enemies.
I totally agree, but that doesnt mean the Waverley Criteria can be applied in this case. That is the point I am trying to make.
One could apply them to Stevensons Rocket for example but not SallyB.
Sorry, I forgot to talk simple for the Little Englanders
Thanks for the insult.
ManonthefenceYes please.
ManonthefenceWhy couldnt you say that then. :rolleyes:
I totally agree, but that doesnt mean the rules should be applied to SallyB. Now if the airframe was one that was stationed here or served with the RAF then maybe. But SallyB is an ex French airframe that represents an aircraft stationed here during the war. She is supposed to act as a memorial and that she does well. Historically signififcant within the scope of the rules quoetd above she isnt.
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