More detail here on the rafale for Switzerland offer and the F5 standard :

http://www.defens-aero.com/2019/06/dossier-2/2-futur-avion-combat-suisse-cas-rafale.html

This has been the Rafale’s contest to win from the outset. The competition includes two aircraft at their peak in terms of systems maturity, proven capabilities (Rafale, F-18 E/F), the Typhoon which increasingly looks like it will never fully capitalize on the potential of that airframe with a timely upgrade path & technology roadmap, one aircraft in the F-35 with enormous potential and future capabilities planned and funded but certainly on the front slope of the maturity/reliability curve. And our eliminated Gripen, which is a question mark in potential and future capabilities.. though I admit bias on my belief that the Gripen E/F project is Cinderella showing up the ball at 11:58.

Add to that the political element of strong lobbying with the EU for support of continental defense solutions (Trump doesn’t help), and I’ve thought this is the Rafale’s competition to lose.

It is never easy to hold the position as favorite, that’s for sure. One “unusual” argument for the rafale is that the senior chaps supervising the technical evaluation were probably familiar with the mirage III in their young years. A bit of nostalgia with Dassault aircrafts does not hurt.

More down to earth you have potential agreements with Switzerland to expend their airspace for training in case of a rafale win.

One thing I slihgtly disagree with you statement is that the next rafale standard (F4) will be in many ways groundbreaking and it will have a value proposition where even the F35 will not be able to match everywhere. So while the F3R standrs is tested now, they will get the F4 if the rafale win.

Gripen E was the top contender for me…Now my bet is on the rafale followed by the F35.

It has been tested with the brand new F3R standard with targo HMS, while Typhoon, F18SH, and F16 are tested with older systems (must be in service). With the rules set up by Armasuisse, Typhoon, SH & F16 should be left behind at least in the technical evaluation in all logic.

Then there is the F35 which is the “unkonwn for me”, it has indeed strong arguments but not sure how it would perform in the Swiss context.

My 2c is that the rules were made to discard some contenders like the gripen E. Then Armassuisse will not automatically end up withthe cheapest “good enough/politically correct option”. They want to be spoiled. You don’t need to have a cristal ball to understand that this set of rules will favour the rafale and the F35 and left other behind.

There is no secured satcom on the Rafale until 2024/2025 with block 4.2. Air International has a series of article on the Rafale F3R* in its June edition coupled with a report on the Gripen E. Quite interesting to read and compare to get a clear picture about who has what or not.

*as well as future block 4.1&4.2

Thanx, I’ll get one. Interesting to see what are the latest news on the various rafale standards.

If you believe the words of a test pilot talking about his own aircraft and the comany who gives him a living, then every aircraft is the best of the world listening at tests pilots…Anyone with a bit of exeprience an maturity knows that and only the most die hard fanboy will take it for granted. I can tell you that in the French aeronautic press, some pilots just as qualified were much more “balanced” commenting the actual performance of the F35 during its display. “In the realm of F18 performance” as far as I remember. Nothing to be ashamed of, but nothing groundbreaking either.

Personnaly I was pleased to see the F35 manoeuvres hard for the first time, and I found it better than expected (my initial expectation were low I must say). I liked the trust to weight ratio although the demo is performed with 50% internal fuel. It jhas indeed good high AoA authority with marginal post stall maneuvrability.

Yes it can perform some agressive manoeuvres but the downside is that it immediately reach high AoA losing energy quickly due to its high wing loading. When a 4th gen perform a hard pull it has enough “lift” to avoid reaching these high AoA when the F35 has no other choice, that’s just physics and even an exellent FCS will not go against that. The result is a completely different tempo & style during the aerobatic display. In the approx 10 minutes that last a display the typicl 4th gen fighter will perform much more aerobatics than the F35, the display is more “dense” as the the F35 needs times to recover energy between each agressive manoeuvres.

So it boils down to energy management vs high AoA.

What would be interserting is to know how quickly the F35 reach high AoA during a hard pull or/and slow speed…When a 4th gen jet in the exact same condition will still fly normally. The 4th gen jet which has a lower fuel fraction and no internal bays flys more “effortlessly” than the F35 which needs all the power of its engine and its FCS to keep it manoeuvrable.

Different type of maneuvrability it is as simple as that.

Rafale/F16/Typhoon may not reach those extreme AoA but on the other hand they will preserve their energy much better. It is much more a software limitation than a physical limitation. There are pro and cons both ways…It is really an endless debate, any outcome (everything else being equal) will depend on tactics and pilot skills. High AoA is fine but if you miss your shot you have bled all your energy…You can still retain some marginal post stall maneuvrability but you will be in not so enviable position falling like a brick trying to point your nose somewhere. This tactic can work…Or fail…There is just no guarantee !

As far as IR missile are concerned, one can make the case that a MICA IR which has “roughly” the range of an AIM-120C5 could be shot long before the merge (it has a datalink) in case your EM missile fails…Due to jamming for instance, which is a likely scenario.
So all that’s maneuvrability/HMS/HOBS story is suddenly not so relevant when you have a “long stick” IR missile. The truth is that even a mig 21 with a modern HOBS/all aspect IR missile with HMS has about the same chance than an F35 or F22 in a dogfight.