I was simply pointing out the obvious, just as you saw it. TMor gets tunnel vision when he hears something that might sound negative towards Rafale or the Gods that produce them.

The same can apply to yourself.

Seeing negotiations as “arrogance” is simply the argument of the sore losers. Any sensible economic organization would try to protect its interests especially when you feel that you could pay penalties when you don’t have the full control of the operations. HAL has to do the final assembly as stated in the MMRCA conditions but that don’t prevent you from clearly sorting out what’s from your responsibility from what is from HAL in terms of delivering at the right quality and on time.

Anyway for the sore losers Dassault’s is either “desperate” being ready to do anything to win a deal or it is just “arrogant”. You have to choose ! What a childish over simplistic view. Of course their manufacturers are just “saints” in comparison, that’s a well known fact.

Actually what they do is unconsciously or more consciously is mixing “racists” clich�s like “the french are arrogant” to Dassault which is always guilty whatever they do. I think it is a more “politically correct” way to express their hidden anti-french feelings, Dassault and the rafale symbolizing France.

Although the french rafale fans scan virulently advocate for the rafale on forum I however see on big difference : I don’t see racist clich�s against the british/BAE or other competing countries and their manufacturer (except perhaps one former mad infamous french rafale fan). There is quite often this “rampant” racism or jealousy from several typhoon fans.

SP�s Exclusive: MMRCA negotiations “back on track”

May 06, 2013: After weeks of being stalled, commercial negotiations for the MMRCA are back on track and in full flow, top sources confirm. Since March, negotiations had been held up on multiple counts, including a tussle over contractual modalities, a split contract between Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for flyaway and license-built aircraft, transfer of technology and offsets. Sources in Dassault inform that mutual discussions have yielded a way forward.[…]

http://www.spsaviation.net/exclusive/?id=198&h=MMRCA-negotiations-back-on-track

Cross posting from mp.net : flight testing the rafale by a brazilian test pilot who already tested the SH block2 and the gripen :

Rafale exposed to X-rays; part 1.1

Defesa.net , April 5

Transparency. This seems to me the best word to define a week of Rafale’s evaluation, the Dassault fighter which is now the principal, and soon, the single combat aircraft of the French Air Force and the french Navy[…] Dassault allowed us to test the capabilities of the aircraft in detail, all was recorded and analyzed with the support of telemetry during all missions. […]

7 for 1

As a fighter used in three recent operations, Afghanistan, Libya and Mali, the Rafale needs no introduction. There are several articles and publications that describe the models and the specifications of the French fighter, however, it’s worth noting that both single-seat and two-seat aircraft retain the same dimensions and the same percentage of composites in their surface exposed to detection: 70%. Here, we’ll focus on testing the real capabilities of the airplane we flew ; the Rafale F3-04T, a F3 + with the new RBE2 AESA, DDM NG (warning of approaching missiles) and improved FSO (suite of optical sensors), ,available ahead of schedule, which convinced us on the realistic process of maturation and evolution of the Rafale.

Our ratings were given according to the planning of the mission , with a chapter about practicality and versatility, and after a digital debriefing (corroborated by the analysis of telemetry), which helped us to understand the reason of the deep impact of the introduction of the Rafale, and its effect on operational reality and on the C4ISTR chain (Command, Control, Communications, Computer, Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition, Reconnaissance) of the French Military Forces . (See details of our visit to Base Aérienne 113/Saint Dizier, in Part 2 of this review).

The deployment of the Dassault Rafale was able to cope with the omnipresent reality of reduced budgets worldwide, with surprising results: Decrease of the total number of fighter, reconnaissance and attack aircrafts, but increase in capacity, availability and efficiency. Overall, seven different aircraft models, with specific missions, are replaced by the Rafale. In a quick deduction of what this will represent in matter of costs when the last aircraft will be replaced, the finding of a drastic rationalization of human and financial resources, with the standardization of equipment and crews. If we consider that the very initial conversion of pilots occurs in the same structure (Escadron de Transformation Rafale 2/92 Aquitaine) for both the Air Force and the Navy, we have an idea of how effective was the decision to select this “omnirole” fighter plane . But what does this name mean in practice?

“Omni” – Dissecting a concept

The Latin prefix “Omni”, which means “whole” instead of the usual “multirole” multi-function – could be justified […] by the marketing department? For me, after evaluation, and even after having tested other fighters that incorporate similar capabilities, I believe that, beyond commercial calls, one wanted to emphasize the practical side and ease of switch, reset and perform a range of different missions with constantly changing scenarios during a single flight. The Rafale has what we might call an “ergonomic full practice,” since Dassault, following the company’s own DNA, considers the pilot has as a key element. The aircraft is drawn from the fingertips of whoever controls it . Obviously in just one week, I’m far from considering myself as a Rafale expert, but I guarantee that with the brief intensive instruction I received, I was extremely easy to operate the Rafale.

To prove this capability and facility to fulfill various types of mission with a complex combination of weapons in a single sortie , i made a flight synthesising the operations performed by the French Air Force and Navy in Afghanistan, Libya and Mali, but in a theater with more hostile and more prepared forces. The set of attacks incorporated maritime missions using the AM39 Exocet, penetrations at very low altitude, AASM – Armement Air-Sol modulaire- attacks on planned and unplanned targets reassigned in flight, both in high altitude and low level bombing, POP attack, long range and short range interceptions, and strafing at opportunity targets with the Nexter 30 M 791 with 30mm ammunitions.
[…]

Data Fusion

PCWRITE . With this combination of “letters” appear in the lower left corner of the HLD – Head Level Display- the representation of informations coming from the RBE2 AESA radar, from the Infrared/Laser/TV Front-Sector Optronics (FSO) , from the internal SPECTRA EW electronic warfare suite, on IFF (identification friend-enemy), from the MICA IR missile sensors (infrared seekers) and Data Link are also providing data jointly translated and merged, clearly and directly into a unified visual representation on the SA (situation awareness) tactical fighter display, which keeps the pilot aware of the situation, giving a real and instant confirmation of which sensors act at the moment, rarely (not witnessed any time during evaluations) leaving the pilot inadvertent of the situation, 360 º around the aircraft.

The heart of this data fusion is the MDPU -Modular Data Processing Unit – which is composed 19 LRU modules (Line Replaceable Unit), each providing a processing capacity up to 50 times more powerful than previous-generation fighter . Translation: The pilot has a reduced workload, which enables you to act like a real tactical decision maker, rather than a mere operator sensors.

The key point of data fusion is to overcome the limitations of a particular sensor alone. For example, if it is based on waveforms, frequency, heat or image; then angle, distance, altitude, weather conditions or any other factor, even a malfunction, could represent a limitation; then the others sensors complete the situational picture. The MDPU collects consolidated data from different sources based on various technologies, complementing, organizing and providing information through a refined, reliable and unified symbology. […]

[to be continued…]

part 2 of the introduction :

Rafale exposed to X-rays; part 1.2

Defesa.net , April 5

RBE2 AESA and FSO

The fact Dassault hold shares in Thales Group was instrumental in the development of active electronically scanned radar – also known as AESA radar (English: Active Electronically Scanned Array) – the Rafale , with the speed and independence needed for the viability of the French fighter program. […] During our simulated scenarios (Part 3) , we used the RBE2 AESA for real-time generation of 3D map for Terrain Following Flight mode, we used capture of high resolution 2D map for detection and identification of enemies in different environments (urban and rural), and designation and tracking of multiple targets both on land and at sea.

Among other sensors, the combination of AESA radar with the FSO – Front Sector Optronics developed by Thales and Sagem for the Rafale, made ​​me feel very comfortable, especially for attesting that if the rules of engagement in the tasks we performed were a real requirement, I would be confident in identifying the attacked targets on air, land or sea..Always with the automatic search and tracking amazingly integrated in the multi-sensor suite of the Rafale. Moreover, we had the ability to close the set of activities designated for us, doing image recognition with TV / IR and laser measurement, neutralization of targets and measure of the results of the mission.

METEOR and MICA

The MBDA MICA missile (Missile d’interception et de combat aérien) is the main air-to-air, multi-target, all weather, fire-and-forget weapon of the Rafale. Extremely agile, thanks to TVC – thrust vector control, or control of thrust vectoring- , and its small size, unusual compared to similar missiles of short and medium range, MICA has demonstrated the effectiveness from 500 meters to 60 km, in versions IR (infra-red seeker) and EM (active radar homing seeker), both equipped with filters that reduce the efficiency of countermeasures such as chaff and flares. The MBDA MICA is also able to lock-on after launch (LOAL), which means in practice a “permit” shooting out of the range of the missile’s sensors, effecting the acquisition and lock on target after launch, and even a reset via its link with the fighter.

As mentioned in the description of the Rafale Data Fusion, IR infrared MICA can provide visual information to the fighter, acting as a sort of extra sensor.

During our evaluations, including master duels in BVR and WVR scenarios against Mirage 2000-5 (analyzed in more detail in the Part 3 of this test), we were able to confirm the effiicience of the combination of Spectra EW with the handling characteristics and acquisition capacities of MICA ER which allowed us to catch target from the EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection – Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser – when the bubble of security around the Rafale was invaded and execute a launch of the missile over the shoulder – on top the shoulder- or the firing of a MICA against a target located at position six (behind the aircraft) without even changing the direction of flight of our fighter.

We were honored with the privilege to accompany the current stage of development of the next air-to-air missile to be employed by the Rafale, the MBDA METEOR, propulsed by a ramjet (jet engine that has no moving parts, simple and small but with great speed) that leads to more than Mach 4 with a high lethality over 100 km. We had access to the program integration simulator, where is tested the behavior of the new weapons in conjunction with the AESA radar and other sensors that make up the suite of data fusion that ensure the Rafale a precise target acquisition and lock. We had the honor of performing some releases of METEOR, which records were added to the program development and integration database.

Insurance … to 900km / h and 20 meters from the ground, filled with enemies around

A safety pilot is guarded by various systems on the Rafale. Already in the seat, the inclination of 29 ° is intended to spread the gravitational effect, preventing G-Loc, even to 9 Gs positive . The Dassault fighter can pull factors within the expected operational load, air-to-air mode. The GPW – Ground Proximity Warning- alerts via audible and visual signals to proceed with the necessary caution to avoid colliding with the ground when the attitude of flight is close to the surface. If you need, a pre-programmed recovery system can be accessed by the pilot in the case of spatial disorientation “anti-spin”, although both the Rafale has not shown any tendency even in the corners of the envelope, once triggered, leads the aircraft a safe situation with wings level, 5th incidence and 350 kt. In the absence of reaction of the pilot, a maneuver is initiated automatically led back to the leveling of the airplane wings and a positive reason to rise.

[…] the CFIT – controlled flight into terrain -(near the ground – hilly or flat – or water) is one of a Rafale’s main advantages. A clever and unique ability to use what I call “guerrilla invisibility.” The Terrain Following mode, much more than an aid to extreme piloting – very fast and at very low altitude- acts as an extra pilot in the cockpit, since, for security I felt in the fidelity of the system – which combines redundancy and AESA radar the digital database, leave us entirely focused on the tactical objective of the mission. Deliver the “orders” in the right place at the right time … and yet, track airborne targets and threats during the raid. (Read more in Part 2 and 3).

In addition to this protection to the pilotage and physiological activity of high performance aircraft, the Rafale incorporates a electronic integrated “shield” in the aircraft, giving us the feeling of flying in a bubble of security. The SPECTRA Electronic Warfare suite , developed by Thales and MBDA, incorporates the ability of situational awareness and alert to multispectral threats, ie radars, lasers and enemy missiles. More than “enough” – if one can call it simple – let the pilot ahead of threats with the benefit of time to make the best decision, the SPECTRA Data Fusion also integrates the Rafale, and allows using a weapons against a threat that becomes a target. See examples in engagements with the Mirage 2000-5, in Part 3.

A Delicate Brute

The surplus of power associated with Rafale allows it to carry a payload of up to 140% of its own weight. This percentage means 24, 5 tons of maximum takeoff weight. References to the robustness of the Dassault aircraft, are practical, real, direct and … unpublished! We witnessed at istres the implementation of two new stations under the wings of the fighter, without any alteration or structural reinforcement. Details on the parties will follow in this evaluation.

All this “brutality” did not detract the Rafale being an air dancer since its agility, acceleration, speed and flexibility demonstrate a successful aerodynamic model. Pause for poetry, Monsieur Marcel Dassault preached that “an aircraft which fly well, must be beautiful.” In this case, passions and preferences aside, the Rafale is a gorgeus aircraft. But, leaving aside the cult of the beautiful being particular to the country of Saint Exupery and Clostermann, and coming back to the coldness of the numbers, we showed on video telemetry, attached to this Part (DNTV), a looping at low speed, initiated at 190 kt and reduced to 128 kt on the top and and varying only 2300 feet. […]
To say goodbye this introduction […], I describe the impressive capacity of short landing of the Rafale, we – even on days with gust winds , which demanded my attention to the touch – landed safely in less than 650 meters, with 510 kg of fuel remaining, two MICA and a supersonic external ventral tank…

@jrvianney Sorry to bother you, but is it google or you shot over the shoulder using passive sensors??? Awesome!

@emouchet2 No Google’s mistake. #Rafale is capable to do it thanks SPECTRA EW, Data Fusion and link to MICA missile!

https://twitter.com/jrvianney/status/320634898463469568/photo/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2Z-Kurz9RZg

Originally Posted by Tu22m
I can tell you the offer from SAAB and then you can tell me if that is a deal nobody dares to brake or not.

Current offer:
Brazil will be responsible for 40% of all future development in the Gripen system (globally)
Embraer will lead all future Gripen sales in latin America
Brazil can tailor the Gripen as much as they want (maybe the Sea Gripen or EPE version?)
Full access to source codes
Own production of Gripen (almost nothing will be produced in Sweden)

Basically this means thet Brazil can develop their own Gripen platform since production and development mostly will be done by Embraer.

Each competitors have its own arguments for the FX2 competition. Gripen is the cheapest solution and offer a good offset package albeit probably not the best compared to Boeing. For your information Dassault also propose Brazil the lead for latin america exports and access to source code.

However as far as ToT is concerned it should be at a clear disadvantage compared to the SH provided the US are willing to cooperate and the rafale.

Main elements of the aircraft like the engine, radar or IRST are not Swedish…Which mean that any ToT is potentially subjected to restrictions from the countries of origin. I know that Selex is eager to transfer some of its technologies but there is still a higher risk of a more limited transfer of technologies as well as more possibilities of restriction in the future (not to mention GE)…You know there is a difference between the official statements that you do in pure advertising fashion and the hard reality of a contract.

Besides, Brazil can tailor the SH and the rafale as much as they want too…I don’t see where you found such a difference.

Rafale is not the only a/c with such capabilities:

Quote:
A basic use of the datalink is “silent attack.” An adversary may be aware that he is being tracked by a fighter radar that is outside missile range. He may not be aware that another, closer fighter is receiving that tracking data and is preparing for a missile launch without using its own radar. After launch, the shooter can break and escape, while the other fighter continues to pass tracking data to the missile. In tests, Gripen pilots have learned that this makes it possible to delay using the AMRAAM’s active seeker until it is too late for the target to respond.

But the use of the link goes beyond this, towards what the Swedish Air Force calls “samverkan,” or close-cooperation. One example is the use of the Ericsson PS-05/A radar with TIDLS. An Ericsson paper compares its application, with identical sensors and precise knowledge of the location of both platforms, to human twins: “Communication is possible without explaining everything.”

“Radar-samverkan,” the Ericsson paper suggests, equips the formation with a super-radar of extraordinary capabilities. The PS-05/A can operate in passive mode, as a sensitive receiver with high directional accuracy (due to its large antenna). Two PS-05/As can exchange information by datalink and locate the target by triangulation. The target’s signals will often identify it as well.

The datalink results in better tracking. Usually, three plots (echoes) are needed to track a target in track-while-scan mode. The datalink allows the radars to share plots, not just tracks, so even if none of the aircraft in a formation gets enough plots on its own to track the target, they may do so collectively.

The thing is beyond the marketing claim of this brochures from Ericsson that “suggest” this capability and which is interpreted by another paper what is the truth about this capability.

As far as I know the gripen has a good reputation in terms of data-links but is not known to have a silent BVR kill capability. I mean validated by the air force and commonly used during exercises and not only “suggested”. From what I understood in my previous discussions it is still a capability which is quite unique for the rafale compared to other 4th gen jets. This situation will probably change with next gripen upgrade though.

Just to give another insight of SPECTRA performance, there was the answer of captain Romain on his blog. For the record Captain Romain wrote a book of rafale engagement in afghanistan.

Cne Romain:

One must first know that France has a very high credibility worldwide in terms of jamming. So one should be particularly ill informed to think there could be a beginning of a gap in Spectra.

Spectra is a accomplished self-protection system that we are developping every day with programming, testing and with software and hardware updates: month after month ,Spectra is evolving.

In my opinion, i think we are currently using only 2/3 of Spectra capacities: We still have much work to do to optimize our jamming libraries and methods of use.

Finally, just to give you an idea of what stealth is or isn’t : to be 100% stealth, one should neither be seen nor to let others know they are seen … For example, a stealth aircraft that would use its radar to fire a missile, would be suddenly no longer stealth

One of the great strength of the Rafale is here: we do not need to activate our radar to fire our missiles far beyond visual range.

Corentin

Hello Captain,
Thank you for these clarifications! I am perhaps too curious but can you explain how the Rafale is capable of firing beyond visual range “passively”, and how far?
Do other airplanes of the same generation (EF, Gripen, F-18) use, to your knowledge, equivalent techniques ?

Cne Romain:

The Rafale merges the informations coming from its sensors to give a very reliable and clear picture to the pilot. It’s already a considerable advantage over previous-generation aircraft, including EF and Gripen. When the pilot decides to fire a air to air missile, the missile leaves the aircraft taking automatically into account all available informations.
When the radar is not used, the missile can use the OSF (a TV camera coupled with a laser rangefinder), the informations provided by another aircraft via the MIDS, a heat source detected by the OSF or a MICA IR, or finally a localization by SPECTRA and thanks to our tests ,we know that our missiles are very effective in such context

http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2010/11/11/228808-la-question-de-corentin

I am not saying like anyone here (which is why it is more a deaf discussion) that relying on RWR is the panacea and ideal in all situations but it seems nevertheless according to the discussions I had and other testimonies such as this one that SPECTRA is quite effective and at longer range that some would expect. Probably your PK will be lower than with a radar at long range but it is considered as operationally relevant by french forces

EELightning
To my knowledge, corrections welcome, there aren’t any parts produced in the UAE for the Rafale, or are Dassault offering this option? Theres a part that is, to be, produced for Typhoon in-country by TPI, an aluminium V-frame section. TPI could also develop titanium firewalls for Typhoon too and BAE Systems are in discussions with other UAE-based defence industry manufacturers to develop other components for Typhoon too. Industrial benefits and ToT are areas where the UAE are greatly interested in it seems, as most of us know BAE Systems tend to be rather generous in these areas.

While producing a V frame section for the typhoon is a “visible” compensation as a direct link can be established with the Typhoon bid it is only a relatively minor offset. Good for communication but it will not be enough and I am sure Typhoon Gmbh has much more to propose.

As a comparison France agreed to transfer flight rights to Ethiad and Emirates which both provides millions of turnover annualy and it was a difficult political decision in France as it was dassault vs air france jobs. This hit the new in france and created a debate within the country. France also agreed to set up permanent military presence in the UAE for army, navy and air force. Although the UAE pay some compensations it is still a significant investment for france. Unfortunately this military presence was not bound directly in the negotiations but dipomats thought the rafale deal would be a logical compensation.

swerve
Quote:
Originally Posted by EELightning
… theres still quite a way to go before Dassault secure this deal and lets face it, they do have the uncanny ability to balls up deals at the last minute, i.e. UAE. …
Don’t forget Morocco – though that was the DGA screwing it up for Dassault, IIRC.

to be fair you should take into account that Dassault already managed to sign another big multi-billion $ fighter jet deal very recently and in India mind you : the indian mirage 2000 upgrade with plenty of Mica missiles in order.

This is more relevant in the indian context than both Morroco who was due to political interference (not linked to dassault ability to negotiate) and UAE who can wait and remain very demanding with its F16 block 60 and mirage 2000-9.

Check the rafale thread but news are very positive regarding dassault/india negotiations.