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eagle1

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Viewing 15 posts - 856 through 870 (of 1,087 total)
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  • in reply to: Nice MMRCA News and Discussion 9 #2373106
    eagle1
    Participant

    That’s just the original rumor that is just being repeated itself on several site and then copy paste a thousand time. Classic phenomena on the net, the same that happened with the typhoon and Japan. I prefer to wait some more days or weeks to see the trend and read more detailed serious publications.

    in reply to: Nice MMRCA News and Discussion 9 #2373116
    eagle1
    Participant

    I am not playing that childish game of photo comparison as the perception can change depending of the photo age of the aircraft, quality of maintenance etc. My personal experience is that there is no real visible difference, and there is nothing serious that suggest that there would be a difference. This is your own speculation that you suddenly brought tonight.

    If there was an issue I would expect the specialized press to have talked about it. Perhaps two good indicators is that the rafale offer more life span than the typhoon and that several reports from the specialized press say that rafale offer a lower RCS.

    Besides the swiss evaluation which many said to be the real test to compare transparently the two aircrafts gave its results. So if there was really an issue how could it win this race or even make the cut in india ? Just to say that this sudden idea is a personal creation from an isolated forumer that has not been backed by serious publication.

    in reply to: Nice MMRCA News and Discussion 9 #2373129
    eagle1
    Participant

    Well if you take an un-sourced rumor seriously then we should consider this piece of information from Avia news from switzerland :

    According to Avia News , the last Dassault offer in Switzerland was 22 Rafale (version 3F-04T) for $ 4.5 billion francs. Eurofighter offered 18 Typhoon for 5.8 billions francs.

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News/page160
    Cf today’s rafale news to cross check this reference.

    Then the vast majority of open sources coming from the specialized press is reporting a quite significant price gap between the two. I am rather confident about it and I bet that most of people intuition through common sense goes in that direction.

    in reply to: Nice MMRCA News and Discussion 9 #2373138
    eagle1
    Participant

    Your comparison is stupid : You are comparing close up of a rafale M after a oceanic deployment to a typhoon from a greater distance. take a rafale C or B in good shape and the assemblage quality and you’ll see is the same if not better.

    To be sarcastic I would say that on one hand you have a war beast with a tough and true operational life on a carrier versus a hangar queen that just do sky policing.

    My take :

    -costs 20 to 40% advantage for the rafale (unit costs & operating costs & weapons)
    -ToT better for the rafale : dealing with a single state is simpler and more efficient
    -Offsets : advantage Typhoon but on the other hand there is more room for cooperation when you are two than five.
    -Strategic : rafale due to the lack of strategic visibility/readability of typhoon consortium versus france especially in 10, 20, 30 or 40 years…
    -risks : rafale is less risky, it is already developed versus an unfinished product

    in reply to: Nice MMRCA News and Discussion 9 #2373172
    eagle1
    Participant

    First of all people are so exited here that whenever there is the slightest rumor everyone goes crazy. It is an unsourced rumor and I would take it cautiously even if I know if psychologically it can be reassuring for some.

    If you take various figures of unit costs from various countries or competitions the rafale is always the cheaper with a comfortable margin.

    As far as operating costs are concerned the same is true and considering the rafale is the smaller aircraft there is nothing surprising that it should be cheaper to operate especially when it was designed with less moving parts and more life span.

    And for the weapon package the commonality with mirage 2000-5mk2 should be taken into consideration.

    As far as build quality is concerned and having sat in both aircraft and seeing them very close there is no real visible difference between the two.

    in reply to: Nice MMRCA News and Discussion 9 #2373177
    eagle1
    Participant

    I am reasonably confident that the gap will remain quite significant there is the unit cost (Swiss deal is a good indicator) but there is also the operating costs and weapon package where the rafale should normally widen the gap. If Dassault play it smart they can keep a good profitability ans still undercut the typhoon on costs.

    in reply to: Rafale news part XI #2373345
    eagle1
    Participant

    Ok with that

    in reply to: Nice MMRCA News and Discussion 9 #2373367
    eagle1
    Participant

    That must be the total costs with the full weapon package, facilities, training cost of offset and ToT.

    in reply to: Rafale news part XI #2373373
    eagle1
    Participant

    Just a focus on one part of the article :

    The Eurofighter is most expensive but still falls in the numbers. The European consortium offers an improved aircraft with a more powerful CAPTOR-M radar version . This version of the radar is part of the 3A tranche, which prepares the arrival in 2016 of the CAPTOR-E with electronic scanning antenna that can be installed as a retrofit.

    we learn that an improved AESA ready CAPTOR M was proposed for the swiss air force with a possibility of retrofit from 2016. Despite having the mech radar it is more expensive of the three contenders.

    in reply to: Rafale news part XI #2373406
    eagle1
    Participant

    Combat Aircraft: manufacturers under pressure!Avia News , Nov 4

    Switzerland will choose its new fighter before the end of the year, I propose a final section about the progress of the competition. Prices fell and political-industrial interest resurface! Politicians succeed in Bern to explain the benefits of the aircraft they defend, Swedish followed by the French Defense Minister Gerard Longuet followed next Tuesday by German Thomas de Maizière.

    Competition played a role:

    The strategy implemented by the DDPS and Armasuisse worked very well and the crisis of the European currency is providing the icing on the cake! Remember, there was talk of a purchase about 5 billion [francs], but last week Ueli Maurer (Head of the DDPS [M.O.D.]) was very proud to announce that the updated offers will not exceed 4 billion for the highest ! The decline of the euro, combined with the competitive strategy have forced the three manufacturers to revise their price.
    Saab, Dassault Aviation and Cassidian (EADS) must sell and had to bring on the table a draft budget which corresponds to the finances of Switzerland, lest simply be discarded.
    The Gripen is the less expensive plane with an offer around 3 billion, while the Eurofighter is around 4 billion. The Rafale is between the two.

    The situation of three competitors:

    The French aircraft is undoubtedly the favorite with a price that is perfectly in the line with the imposed budget. Best in tests with 95% success, the Rafale is also available with a full industrial partnership that affects not only the entire plane itself but also the whole range of business jets “Falcon”, the engine manufacturer SNECMA / CFM International and all related manufacturers.Was the best aircraft overtaken by its competitors? The answer is no, the Rafale is immediately proposed with an electronic scanning antenna (AESA) and some second generation items, that were tested, like the front sector optronic(OSF) and the electronic architecture.
    The weak point? The French aircraft found so far no customers abroad, and in some way there is a risk for our country to become entirely dependent on french future choices. Yes, except that the Rafale will probably be sold in the UAE and is also well-positioned in India and Brazil, so the situation could evolve.

    The Swedish aircraft remains the cheapest and can play on the effect of the price. But the arguments of Sweden will also play on the fact that the Gripen demonstrator has evolved through the NG (Next Generation Gripen). The proposed version to Switzerland will be remotorizéd (General Electric F414-) and therefore more powerful , the electronic architecture is more recent and by 2016 it will be possible to install the Ericsson RAVEN ES-05 with electronically scanned antenna (AESA) . But beware, the plane is the smallest, experience shows that it is always more complex to modernize an aircraft with little free space.
    Saab offers a collaborative effort to update the entire fleet of Gripen in the world and this in full collaboration with the Swedish aviation. The offer is attractive to the condition that all customers of Gripen, want such a modernization. However, there is an unknown : SAAB manufacturer viability in the long run!

    The Eurofighter is most expensive but still falls in the numbers. The European consortium offers an improved aircraft with a more powerful CAPTOR-M radar version . This version of the radar is part of the 3A tranche, which prepares the arrival in 2016 of the CAPTOR-E with electronic scanning antenna that can be installed as a retrofit. Cassidian provides a strong partnership with companies such as Airbus, Eurocopter, CASA and the equipment manufacturers of the group.
    Yet there is a risk in terms of collaboration because of the complexity of the consortium whose procedures are slowed due to the outsourcing of the assembly lines to the 4 producing countries.
    […]

    http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/2011/11/03/avions-de-combat-constructeurs-sous-pression.html

    in reply to: Rafale news part XI #2373782
    eagle1
    Participant

    It is funny to think that UAE,INDIA and Switzerland should take their decision is approx the same time frame (possibly). I know that we can always be surprised but it would be quite extraordinary if ever these three countries make their decision in the same month or week…After all these years stars might be at last favourable for the rafale (or not:D)

    in reply to: Rafale news part XI #2373793
    eagle1
    Participant

    They are supposed to take their decision before christmas…

    in reply to: Rafale news part XI #2373847
    eagle1
    Participant

    The desired plane

    Basler Zeitung , Nov 3

    The French Rafale is the aircraft that want the Swiss military pilots, and the fighter jet from manufacturer Dassault has clearly performed best at the flight tests . Its disadvantage: Although President Sarkozy abroad at almost every opportunity for lobbying the aircraft, the French were not able to export a single machine. Possible partners are therefore strongly in the development of the jet depends on the wishes of the French Air Force and Navy. Despite the absence of orders to keep the production going abroad, the French government decided last year to order machines earlier than planned in the service. Of the total ordered 286 jets around 100 have been so far delivered . In Switzerland, the French hope for sales success, because Dassault knows well the local air force and defense industry since the time of Mirage [III]. The comparatively small number of jets and flying hours, according to experts could cause relatively high operating and maintenance costs.
    […]

    http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Politiker-wollen-mit-Kampfjetkauf-die-Deutschen-unter-Druck-setzen/story/17131363

    in reply to: Nice MMRCA News and Discussion 9 #2374051
    eagle1
    Participant

    Still Typhoon paradigm is high altitude BVR fights. Long range radar with good side looking performance, good supersonic maneuverability to deny your opponent to fire back and super-cruise to vector favorably your attack and escape quickly.

    Typhoon was primarily designed as an interceptor and AtG missions were only seriously considered latter when the cold war was over and that funding was lacking to have dedicated assets.

    Of course that does not mean you can’t hang bombs and other stuff and do Low level attack…But that’s not the original design philosophy. The best example is the unpractical AtG weapon and external fuel layout of the typhoon which does not reflect a multirole bias from the beginning like the rafale.

    Now some might have exaggerated/oversimplified the difference but it is true that the design goals were different.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon News & Discussions Thread V #2374057
    eagle1
    Participant

    What I found surprising is not only the slow and late AESA radar development for the typhoon but also the lack of key millstones achieved in turning it in a true multirole platform (cruise missiles, anti-ship, recce, heavy bombs etc…)

    A part from vague declarations and blurred time schedule horizon it is hard to spot the willingness of the partner nations in that field.

    Considering the very slow process of developing multirole capabilities and an AESA radar what to think about more exotic upgrades like CFT, TVC or naval version ? A special mention to the CFT issue which is an imperative to become a more effective strike fighter due to the poor weapon & external fuel layout.

    All this hampers Typhoon credibility in the competition in my opinion. Especially when you know that partner nation see this deal as a way to cancel some of their own orders. Overall not very appealing program to join due to lack of momentum.

    Cassidian and BAE sales man must be very competent and persuasive to hope to bag the deal. The good thing in that type of business is that despite objective reasons to chose an aircraft or another is that you never know what goes behind the curtains. If you have the right intermediaries or facilitators who knwos the right people and you are ready to pay good amounts of money to convince the few “key stakeholders” you have the best chances of winning the deal !!

    We should not have a tender hearted vision : countries involved will do everything they can to win the deal. Even corruption if they have the right opportunity. The stake is just too high.

Viewing 15 posts - 856 through 870 (of 1,087 total)