eagle1I belive Scorpion82 analysis is spot on.
To add a valuable source which confirm his analysis, here is Bruno Revellin Faloz point of view.
Revellin Falcoz is an historical figure in Dassault history and one of the most renowned aeronautic engineer of its generation.
Like many other aircraft makers, Dassault has selected a delta-canard configuration for its latest design. “As we were working with the other Europeans, we started to diverge significantly on the design” explains Bruno Revellin-Falcoz [Director of Dassault’s Technical Department]. “Ultimately, we made some radically different choices. They wanted fuselage-mounted canards while we preferred to locate the canards almost above the wing-root. The key advantage of this configuration was that it would channel the air flow over the wing apex, which is where lift-generating vortices are formed. The Eurofighter Typhoon uses its canards as simple control surfaces. Although this creates a significant lever effect, it loses the positive impact on lift and therefore aerodynamic efficiency. That’s why we are certain that the Rafale can handle much better than the Typhoon at high angles of attack, such as during the crucial phases of dogfighting and low-speed flight. While they were groping around in the dark, we benefited from the know-how accumulated through the Mirage III Milan, Mirage III NG and Mirage 4000 programmes
eagle1couldn’t agree more
(…) routinely take off with four MICA air-to-air missiles, three or six AASM Hammer precision-guided bombs, a Thales Damoclès laser targeting pod or a Reco NG reconnaissance pod and two drop tanks. They can be tasked or re-tasked in flight, and routinely are, to fly combat air patrol, precision strike or reconnaissance missions during the same six- or seven-hour sortie.
now that’s what I call omnirole:D
eagle1interesting part :
The Rafales work in a truly networked environment, and are fed targeting and other tactical data from a wide range of coalition sources through the Link 16 datalink. Incoming data is combined with that collected by the aircraft’s own sensors – Thales SPECTRA self-protection suite, OSF electro-optics, RBE-2 radar and even the infra-red guided version of MBDA’s MICA air-to-air missile which, as it scans continuously, can provide IR imagery to the central data processing system. “MICA is not just a missile, it’s an extra sensor as well,” says Pierre G., and its detection range is much longer than generally supposed.
“SPECTRA allowed us to begin operations over Libya the very same day the political decision was taken, and to fly deep into Libyan territory without an escort,” says one pilot, adding that “the Americans also flew in, but only after they had fired 119 Tomahawks to take out Libyan air defenses.”
eagle1Well I believe the Typhoon will eventually get what it needs but not before several years and it is unclear if some of the upgrades will be adopted (CFTs for instance).
But on the rafale side things will evolve as well. According to A&C a new road map is to be unveiled latter this year. So the picture is moving both side and the gap is likely to remain.
eagle1Quadbike,
one should be carefull when you state “The French” it is only one article.
To offer a broader pespective some MP starting by Olivier Dassault want to (re) legalize this kind of “commisions” as the french law is currently too restrictive and that hamper french exports as he complains that other countries are less stringent :
The UMP Olivier Dassault, son of Serge Dassault (Dassault Aviation Chairman), has declared Friday, December 10, favorable for payment of fees in defense contracts, however, banned by France and the OECD. Olivier Dassault trying for years to place its combat aircraft Rafale International, unsuccessfully so far: without these commm, “it will be difficult,” says Mr. Dassault, told Europe 1 radio.
Their prohibition “is a drag on the TGV, power plants, submarines,” the MP, who, if the commissions are restored, must be “known otherwise. (…) They are selling expenses that are given in the context of obtaining a contract. It is the national interest of France is at stake, “he insists. “No one dares say it. At one point, he must dare to say things,” the son of Serge Dassault.
Statements that occur while the Brazilian government about to choose the provider of thirty-six combat aircraft, has announced that he would not announce its decision before the inauguration of President-elect, Dilma Rousseff. Besides the Rafale from Dassault Aviation, the other two devices are in contention: a modernized version of the F-18, Boeing and Gripen NG, the Swedish Saab.
eagle11) EADS leading the commercial offer doesn’t mean that it would be impossible to see BAE personnel assistence. Given the knowledge BAE has of the indian market the contrary would be surprising. I am not taking this article as god truth as it doesn’t prove anything but to think that corruption is not a common practice in that kind of deal is wish-fulthinking. Withhout proving anything this article provide a different light of the forces behind the MMRCA tender, an aspect often overlooked on forums. The article seems well informed and I see no reasons to dismiss it.
2) Omnirole. I don’t know what you are talking about but if you want to add a constructive argument my answer is right a few posts above (you already quoted it).
eagle1Oh! don’t be over sensitive;)
Because you are a pure unbiased person without a preference and I am the evil rafale fan…Quite funny. Either you come with an argument or ignore me. I tried to make a balanced post in order to find a consensus at least I think it was a reasonnable and constructive answer.
eagle1There is obviously some marketing in the “omnirole” statement but also a bit of truth.
simultaneous decoupled mission management between the front and the back seat, the ability to perform SEAD with its onboard spectra suite and AASM which can also be used in multiple type of engagement is not bad.
Perhaps nothing inhereantly exclusive to the rafale but it is indeed a very flexible operationnal asset as shown in Lybia.
In theory some other aircrafts would be able to do the same things but I think that in terms of “operationnaly proven” or “concept of use” the rafale has pushed this “omnirole” or “swingrole” doctrine the furtherst. For the moment the typhoon is far to reach this level of versatility.
Look at the number of things (type of missions) a rafale could do…I think it is already pretty respectable.
eagle1Well actually it is quite well documented. I didn’t spot a single technical/factual mistake on several articles which often the case when the journalist is not really an expert in this aerea. It is perfectly up to date as regards the MMRCA competition. The added value comes from insight from industry sources. Apart from this polemical revelation for which it is up to everyone to make its opinion, the journalist is expert.
Concerning the corruption thing, I take it as a piece of information like other.
eagle1http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/2011/05/moins-deffets-plus-de-reunions.html
A french delegation was in the UK two weeks ago for initial talks for integrating the brimstone missile on the rafale.
Other option currently considered laser guided rockets, a concept pushed by Thales.
eagle1EADS leading the sale doesn’t mean that BAE personnel could not be part of the MMRCA competition. That is not an argument.
Afterwards it is up to everyone to make an opinion.
eagle1The MMRCA competition from another perspective :
[…]French industrial sources do confirm this perspective, the essential argument in this regard is that “the British are infinitely more experienced than anyone in the identification of points of influence and corruption, or to corrupt bureaucrats in the Indian bureaucracy to achieve a result. “ This “expertise” Britain is at least confirmed by the number, according to these same sources, the British BAE (who works for the Typhoon, according to this peculiar situation reported above) would be “between 30 and 40” in India, this MMRCA market, while Dassault would have a permanent delegate.
http://www.dedefensa.org/article-l_inde_ses_avions_et_le_pakistan_et_les_francais_25_05_2011.html
eagle1GBU-24 to be qualified on rafale this year (tests have already begun several monthes ago) :
http://rpdefense.over-blog.com/article-deux-nouveaux-dards-pour-le-rafale-74841063.html
eagle1As far as the UK is concerned I think they should stay with the F35C. It will be a very potent and survivable platform.
On a more “political fiction” note, it was suggested some years ago by a french Admiral that France second aircraft carrier could be entirely build in the UK if the UK decided to operate rafale M.
In terms of cost effectiveness and operational synergies I’ve always found this option attractive. But I know it won’t happen:)
Regarding the Naval gripen it can make sense for smaller navys, especially those who will potentially operate the F35B. However it will not be in the same category of the F35/RAFALE/SH trio. Its smaller size will prevent the Gripen N of carrying big stores like cruise missiles or enough fuel to makes it a first tier Naval fighter.
That being said I think the overall design is suitable for a navalization unlike the Typhoon which looks riskier to develop in a naval variant.
eagle1I am thinking that with the Indian mirage 2000 upgrade pending France and Dassault are trying to link those two and offer India a big overall discount and advertising the synergies between the two deals. French Defense minister is due to travel soon in India.
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