Were the Harriers that went down to the Falklands re-inforced with other GR3’s before the end of the conflict?

The conflict ended on 14th June 1982 so the answer to your question is in my previous post. The original six GR3 arrived on the Atlantic Conveyor and the four reinforcements were flown directly from Ascension Island to HMS Hermes (with in-flight refuelling obviously).

I’ve been having another look at the route and timings for JB221 trying to figure out a possible explanation for the crash location (which is almost due south of Frankfurt). It all really depends on the difference between British and German time; German time is likely to have been ahead by one hour or the same as British time but could it possibly have been one hour behind?

The suggested ‘A’ route to the crash site is 500 miles long so assuming the British take-off time for JB221 [00:30:00] and the German crash time {02:45:00} are correct and that JB221 kept fairly close to the route suggested then the groundspeed for JB221 can be calculated:

[00:30:00] to {02:45:00} [01:45:00] is [01:15:00] so a groundspeed of 400mph
[00:30:00] to {02:45:00} [02:45:00] is [02:15:00] so a groundspeed of 222mph
[00:30:00] to {02:45:00} [03:45:00] is [03:15:00] so a groundspeed of 154mph

Which gives me a bit of a problem as clearly a groundspeed of 400mph is ludicrous for a Lancaster but I doubt that German time was an hour behind British time during the war (although it is possible). :confused:

The other thing that causes a problem is that I cannot see a crew as experienced as that of JB221 deliberately turning south directly after the target some eleven miles too far west; it would seem to be a most dangerous thing to do in a heavily defended area. So the conclusion that I have come to is that there was either a strong headwind or a strong tailwind (I’ve assumed only east-west errors) and that JB221 had misjudged the turning points (and the target) and was off course. This isn’t so difficult to believe as returning crews report 10/10 cloud over the target and the only electronic navigational aid used was probably H2S radar.

Obviously all this is just supposition on my part

Leg 01 – RAF Bourn to Turning Point 1 (50.2000N/1.3000E) – 151 miles [00:30:00]
Leg 02a – Turning Point 1 to Turning Point 2a (50.1500N/7.7717E) – 286 miles
Leg 03a – Turning Point 2a to Target A (50.1030N/8.4027E) – 28 miles
Leg 04a – Target A to Turning Point 3a (50.0000N/8.7376E) – 17 miles
Leg 05a – Turning Point 3a to Crash Modautal (49.7359N/8.7376E) – 18 miles {02:45:00}

Leg 02a Map

Leg 03a Map

Leg 04a Map

Leg 05a Map

I’d agree so far; the reduction gear isn’t from a Merlin or any Bristol engine.

Below is a copy of the squadron’s ORB for that operation.

Thanks for that excellent information.

I’ve been looking at some of the timings for the route flown on the night of 25/26 November 1943 and have added them to the route information in the post above; firstly the average time to fly each leg (in round brackets), followed by the actual time [in square brackets] that an aircraft taking-off at 00:30:00 hours (such as Lancaster JB221) would complete each leg.

I’ve used the take-off and landing times for the 97 Squadron aircraft to get an average speed (worked out at 189 mph) for the whole route (1076 miles!) and I’ve ignored the two fastest and two slowest aircraft. Obviously this calculation is only going to be valid if the aircraft in question actually followed the route (wouldn’t Pathfinders be tempted to cut the last legs and fly straight home?) and didn’t get too lost; also I’ve had to ignore the wind conditions which will put some of the timings out (but should average out so long as the winds didn’t change too much).

There also seems to be an error with the take-off time of JB353; did it really take-off an hour after everybody else but land at about the same time (unless it ‘cut’ large chunks of route)? I’ve assumed JB353 actually took-off at 00:35 hours.

So in answer to the original post, Lancaster JB221 was brought-down about 12 miles to the west of Leg 05 (which heads due south) so presumably had already bombed and was attempting to follow the route home. From the reports of 97 Squadron aircraft, visibility over the target was not good and many aircraft bombed using ‘Y’ equipment (presumably H2S radar) so it would be easy to understand if JB221 was off-track, however JB221 wasn’t necessarily off-track and there could be many other explanations for the eventual crash-site.

Is the time of the crash of Lancaster JB221 known?

[I’m the only one on the forum; first time that has happened to me! :(]

If you look at any old footage from the 1900s in which airships were involved you will see a large wooden ships wheel and the “Captain” looks very nautical in his uniform.

It was worse than that on Airships…..they actually had a Helmsman! 😀

JB 221 was lost on the night of 25/26 November, not 26/27 November.

Ah…..that would explain it! 😮

Why is the target for 26th November 1943 listed as Frankfurt when the main operation that night was Berlin and the diversionary target was Stuttgart?