Creaking DoorAgreed, but the aim of area bombing was to cause a great concentration of 4000lb ‘cookies’ and 4lb incendiaries to cause fires and burn down large areas of the city. When this was achieved, Hamburg and Dresden, the results were spectacular, far outweighing the actual tonnage of bombs dropped.
Also it wasn’t really the bombs that were the problem; over Berlin scattering the target-indicators all over a five-mile radius circle was just no good…..and the target wasn’t necessarily the centre of Berlin.
The result, bomb-loads dropped all over the place not just five-miles out, and much of the bombing wasn’t even that close, bomb-loads were dropped twenty miles off target in open country.
Creaking DoorAbsolutely fascinating! Thank you for taking the time to post and translate this.
If I may make one further suggestion.
The bombers flight kept their course towards their target and flying almost 5 meters over sea…
In the moment that the ship faced the planes, Nogueira tells, we saw that fired her missiles, cause the visual effect is as if she would start in fire for a few seconds. Shortly after this, they launched a second missile and I could see the columns of smoke showing their trajectories when they went up.
Then I stopped seeing them and began a hard left turn. When I was totally concentrated in the maniouver cause we still were flying in a very low level, I felt a strong impact in the plane that instantanely began to vibrate.
Just after finishing my turn I can make an advice and see the steel sheets from the end of the wing, up deflected, so the plane began to have violent turnings that I hardly controlled…
Sounds to me like the wingtip of the Canberra hit the sea! What do you think?
Creaking DoorIt (H2S Mark III) was regarded as the primary bombing aid during the Battle of Berlin…
…but you are quite correct about the results of the bombing…..as opposed to the marking when using it.
Creaking DoorThe Griffon remained in British front line service for something like 50 years, finally being withdrawn with the Shackleton AEW II in 1991. Is this a record?
Almost certainly a record, sadly not due to the undoubted excellence of the Griffon but rather to the unmitigated disaster that is MOD procurement! I think the radar carried by the Shakleton AEW also deserves a mention; wasn’t it fitted second-hand out of an ex-FAA Avenger and also about 50 years old?
Creaking DoorFurther, why are those who are so keen to vilify Harris never seen to comment adversely on the largest and most devastating are bombing attacks in history? I refer of course to the incendiary raids on Tokyo…
I’ve often wondered if the difference in tactics that the US used when attacking Germany and Japan weren’t down to the fact that Germany hadn’t bombed the US but that Japan had? Attacked Pearl Harbor that is (and I know Pearl was a military target and that Hawaii wasn’t a US state back then).
It may explain the different attitudes of the British and US when bombing Germany.
For that matter why are the German commanders not being condemned for their indiscriminate use of unguided ‘vengeance’ weapons?
Personally, I have no issue with the indiscriminate use of the V1/V2 against civilian targets; it would be a bit hypocritical wouldn’t it knowing what Bomber Command was doing to German cities.
Creaking DoorYes, I agree it is still a mystery.
Please do not think that I discount what the Canberra crew say because they are Argentine, I am just trying to match what has been reported from each perspective.
Aircrew can be deceived by what they see. For example after the Canberra / Sea Harrier action the flight leader Captain Baigorri bravely returned to the scene to search for the shot-down crew. His Canberra was spotted by the Lynx crew from HMS Brilliant who reported that it was apparently in difficulties with ‘bits falling off’. Were the Lynx crew correct? No.
Highly trained Sea Harrier pilots also reported missiles being fired at them head-on by Mirage fighters when in fact what they had seen were drop-tanks being jettisoned before combat. Possibly a case of seeing what they expected to see.
Also chaff rockets were fired by British warships when they were being attacked at close range by fighter-bombers (without any Exocet threat) and these rockets were mistaken for missiles by Argentine pilots (as was intended).
So my suggestion is if a frigate is firing chaff rockets at dusk and roughly six miles away a Canberra crew see them is it not possible that they were mistaken?
I would love to have more details of the damage to the Canberra because this is where my theory falls down somewhat. It is inconceivable that the chaff rocket hit the Canberra!
I think an Argentine blue-on-blue is unlikely (especially with Sea Dart); statistically during the conflict missiles either missed or shot-down their target. I can only think of one aircraft that ‘survived’ a missile strike (Sidewinder).
You never know with the power of the internet and this forum we may get a post from one of the Canberra aircrew / groundcrew or even photographs of the damage!
Creaking DoorApparently, Brilliant’s Officer Of the Watch visually identified a Canberra formation circling his ship but the operations room did not respond.
If there was a visual identification of a Canberra at low level then I think the distance would have to be less than six miles as it was dusk. However judging the range of the Canberra would also be difficult; unless it was radar-ranging?
I must admit that the two ‘unaccounted for’ sidewinders fired by Lieutenant Commander Mike Broadwater were my first thought but there seems to be too big a difference in time and distance between the two actions.
The distance betwen Brilliant and Canberras was 6 miles (around 11km). Far enough to confuse the kind of ship that fired at them. But also far away for a Sea Wolf (I think about 6 km) and Sea Cat (5km).
Then, we must think perhaps the distance was closer than 6 miles what would let a Sea Cat or Sea Wolf positive launching at a maximum range.
The question is, what ship did fire?
An extreme range shot for Sea Cat would be very unlikely to result in a hit. Sea Wolf on the other hand proved extremely effective (when it worked) but it also had problems targeting aircraft that the system didn’t regard as a ‘threat’ (such as a circling Canberra) and I think the first firing was later in the conflict.
The diary made aboard HMS Brilliant mentions ‘rockets fired’ (but not missiles fired) presumably these were Chaff Rockets; could the ‘missiles’ seen by the Canberra crew have been Chaff Rockets?
Then there is the confirmed damage to the Canberra. This is surely the least difficult bit of evidence to verify as it could have been examined by many people, without any time pressure, on the ground. Could this damage have been caused in any other way at a time that just happened to coincide with the sighting of the ‘missiles’? Birdstrike perhaps?
Creaking DoorI think you are way off the mark with regard to how the public would regard a statue of Bomber Command aircrew.
I agree with your sentiment that a Bomber Command memorial to the aircrews (and groundcrews) would be more appropriate than a statue of Harris and of course that a campaign medal should have been awarded immediately after the war.
I think the majority of the British public (who know or care who Harris was) do not object to a Statue of him but that those that did object to a statue of Harris would probably find something objectionable about a statue of Bomber Command aircrew also (although you clearly don’t).
As JDK says (much more succinctly :D) the same issues.
Creaking DoorWe are watching the systemic meltdown of the financial foundations of our society, and yet nobody is troubled to mention it.
Maybe we come here to try and forget about it! 🙂
Creaking DoorWe are watching the systemic meltdown of the financial foundations of our society, and yet nobody is troubled to mention it.
Maybe we come here to try and forget about it! 🙂
Creaking DoorBut a statue for Harris? Put one up in the air crews form, NOT his.
We’d have to take down the statue(s) of Churchill then too, wouldn’t we?
After all wasn’t the ultimate responsibility his?
The PR problem that Harris has is that he can’t be commemorated for anything else…..he is all bad!
Creaking DoorAre they trying to tell us: “Ah, so it wasn’t that bad after all!”? “Only” 20,000 dead instead of 500,000. Jeeezz!
Well, yes. It isn’t so bad is it?
I think the real problem with 250,000 dead in Dresden is that these sort of figures are beginning to get into the same league as the Holocaust and can be used (by some) to mitigate or even excuse that crime.
The difference is of course that Nazi Germany could have surrendered at any time and the Allies would have stopped bombing…
…the victims of the Holocaust had no such option!
Creaking DoorWelcome Jualbo.
A very interesting (but a little confusing) ‘first hand’ account.
Are you saying that the Canberra leader of this flight was certainly damaged in the wing by a SAM fired by this unknown warship? And that this is not related to the action involving the other Canberra flight that were intercepted by the Sea Harriers of Curtis and Broadwater (who both fired two sidewinder missiles) and that resulted in a single Canberra (Lieutenants Gonzales and Ibanez killed) being shot-down?
I’ve never heard any mention of this action (not to be confused with the erroneous reports of a second Canberra being damaged in the Sea Harrier action).
Creaking DoorGenuine or a set up?
Got to be a set-up.
Think about it, microwave ovens are 600-1200 Watts power, and it takes quite a while to pop corn in them.
Does a mobile phone battery even have that much power in it? And if it did would you be able have three hours talk-time without flattening the battery if it discharged at that rate?
Creaking DoorGenuine or a set up?
Got to be a set-up.
Think about it, microwave ovens are 600-1200 Watts power, and it takes quite a while to pop corn in them.
Does a mobile phone battery even have that much power in it? And if it did would you be able have three hours talk-time without flattening the battery if it discharged at that rate?
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