Creaking DoorAny one any more
Try a little mental workout!
A fly is flying at 5mph due south along a road. You are travelling along the same road at 50mph due north. Unfortunately you and the fly collide and the fly ends up dead and stuck to the number-plate of your car which is still travelling north at 50mph.
The question is this; if the fly was going due south and it ended up going due north at some point it must have been stationary. Does this mean that for a brief period of time during the collision your car was stationary too?
Oh…..and I know what the last thing to go through the fly’s mind was!
Creaking DoorThere was some discussion about interchangeability in this thread:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=76836&highlight=tolerance&page=2
Creaking DoorDo you know if missiles were actually fired during combat with Sea Harriers by any Mirage or Dagger during the conflict or were all such reports by British pilots mistaken identification of jettisoned drop-tanks (sometimes with small amounts of fuel trailing from them)?
The other issue that often is mentioned is a shortage of drop-tanks for the Mirage or Dagger fighters limiting the number of escort missions that were flown during the conflict.
Finally it has been suggested that the Mirage III fighters were specifically held back as a defence against a possible Vulcan attack on the mainland. What do you think?
Creaking DoorThe DARDOs flew again that day in CAP configuration, but they were not so lucky than before. They were vectored to a Sea Harrier CAP over Borbon Island. Just before engaging Cuerva ordered to drop the fuel tanks that action was taken as a missile lunch for the British Pilots.
The SH CAP was commanded by Flight Lieutenant RAF Paul Barton who shot down Perona with an AIM9L. The Argentine pilot could bail out. Just before been impacted by the missile he saw passing by one SH at very close distance. Perona had misinterpreted the splash of his airplane and his ejection seat in the sea with a collision between his MIIIEA and a Sea Harrier. For that reason, the first reports of the combat from Perona stated an air collision with the SH.
My Cuerva could see the missile lunch to Perona, he advised him but it was too late. Lt RN Steve Thomas in the second SH was trying to shot down Cuerva. The British pilot could lunch an AIM9 but Cuerva could avoid it. Some reports said that the missile exploded at very close range damaging the MIIIEA. Anyway, at that moment the SH and the MIIIEA were at very low fuel level so the SH decided to brake the engagement and return to the Air carrier.
After checking his fuel, Cuerva took the decision of flying to Pto Argentino and try to make a landing. As you know the landing stripe at that moment was very short for a high performance jet. For that reason, the procedure in case of short fuel for the MIIIEA was to fly near the Argentine troops and bail out. But Cuerva decided to try to save the airplane. That MIIIEA was one of the second batch. The FAA took delivery of it just one year or so before and those second batch MIIIEA were equipped with the more reliable and effective Matra 550 Magic.
The airport was at attack alarm so the AA was prepared to shot down any enemy airplane. The communication of the friendly MIIIEA approaching to land arrived too late and the own Argentine AA shot down Cuerva. That shot down was at very low altitude and he couldn’t bail out.
For those missions, Captain Cuerva was upgraded post mortem to Mayor and decorated for his bravery.
Sorry if you find some mistakes in the story. I am not in my home town so I can not check in my library.
Welcome Cosmiccomet74.
Some interesting details than once again highlight the confusion that is often possible in fast-moving conflict in the air.
I’d heard the claim before that the Mirage of First Lieutenant Perona was lost in a mid-air collision with a Sea Harrier and accepting that no Sea Harrier was lost on 1st May I’m afraid I’d put this claim down to crude propaganda by Argentina. I see now from this account how First Lieutenant Perona could have been deceived by what he saw.
Another account I’ve read states that Captain Cuerva jettisoned his unused missiles before he attempted to land and that these were mistaken for bombs and his Mirage for a Sea Harrier and that was the reason that he was shot down.
I think the only part of your account that there would be any dispute about is whether the Mirage of Captain Cuerva was actually damaged by the Sidewinder fired by Lieutenant Thomas.
Creaking DoorI think the engine failure problems of the Henley were due to the ‘effort’ of target towing hence the speed reduction. There shouldn’t really have been any difference in engine reliability anyway as it was the same Merlin engine!
Interesting also the Blackburn Roc was mentioned as I think I remember that the crews that flew Blackburn Skuas on bombing sorties to Norway from Scotland were dismayed to see Henleys sitting idle on the airfield; the Henley being better in almost all respects (except dive bombing?) than the Skua!
Creaking DoorPoco después, el avión número tres avisa que avistó al buque. La alarma ya es general. El jefe de escuadrilla confirma la presencia de la amenaza y, al ver que el” buque cambia su posición para colocarse de proa, ordena eyectar las cargas externas-venían con los tanques suplementarios de punta de ala, los llamados “tips”, que limitan la velocidad del Canberra, de 500 nudos, a sólo 365 nudos– y acelerar.
Short after this, number 3 advised me to having seen the ship. It´s the general alarm. The leader confirmed the presence of the menace and, after seeing that ship was changing her course to point her bow towards the planes, changes his position to head the flight and ordered to accelerate and to drop external charges-they came with fuel extreme wing tanks, called ‘tips’, which limit Canberra speed from 500 knots to only 365 knots.
According top this first hand account wing-tanks were carried…..and dropped.
I must admit that this surprised me as I thought that they wouldn’t be needed at this range. I’m sure there are some Canberra experts out there who can tell us and also if the suggestion that an un-dropped tank could cause wing damage in this case.
Interesting also in this section that the ship appeared to be placing it bows towards the Canberra ‘threat’. I think there was some concern in the RN that the Canberra could have been used to launch Exocet.
Turning the ship bows on was a response to a possible Exocet attack in addition to firing chaff rockets. Possibly supporting the theory that chaff rockets were mistaken for missiles by the Canberra crews.
Creaking DoorCurrent = V/R, so 1.48/10 = 0.148A
Internal Resitance = (Emf – (current x resistance across resistor)) / current
Internal Resitance = (1.53 – (0.148 x 10)) / 0.148
Internal Resitance = (1.53 – 1.48) / 0.148
Internal Resitance = 0.05 / 0.148
Internal Resitance = 0.3378
Internal Resitance = 0.34 Ohms (rounded to two decimal places)
It has been a long day hasn’t it, Sam! 😀
Creaking DoorCurrent = V/R, so 1.48/10 = 0.148A
Internal Resitance = (Emf – (current x resistance across resistor)) / current
Internal Resitance = (1.53 – (0.148 x 10)) / 0.148
Internal Resitance = (1.53 – 1.48) / 0.148
Internal Resitance = 0.05 / 0.148
Internal Resitance = 0.3378
Internal Resitance = 0.34 Ohms (rounded to two decimal places)
It has been a long day hasn’t it, Sam! 😀
Creaking DoorAnyway, I think british side has the keys in this incident. As you say, distances or visual identifications use to be inaccurate. But if there were missile launchings, Royal Navy knows who did it.
Usually the reverse is the case; missiles are fired by the Royal Navy and claims made in good faith but often no aircraft is actually shot-down. Here the RN aren’t making any claim or even stating that missiles were fired.
I wonder if the extreme wing tanks can be ripped off due to G forces in a very close turn. Specially considering the possibility of remaining fuel in it. That is consistent with the lack of explosions.
It is interesting that the wing-tip-tanks limit the speed of the Canberra from 500 to 365 knots and I suppose it is possible that a tank may have failed to jettison without the knowledge of the crew and then fallen away during a high-speed turn damaging the wingtip. Interesting theory.
Creaking DoorOn 21st May HMS Antrim was damaged by a 1000lb bomb that passed through the flash-doors into the Sea Slug magazine and actually struck two missiles but the bomb didn’t explode (nor did the missiles)! Possibly because the Sea Slug system was now damaged a single Sea Slug was fired later that day but it was apparently unguided (jettisoned) and was only intended as a distraction to attacking aircraft.
HMS Glamorgan certainly fired Sea Slug missiles later on in the ‘land attack’ mode but not on the 1st May although she did fire a single Sea Cat missile at an attacking Mirage on that day.
Sea Slug in all its glory!
Creaking DoorGreat White Shark…..Hope…..Elephant? [delete as applicable] 😀
Creaking DoorI´ve just edited my message. I put it in black. I forgot to translate the word “right”.
No apologies necessary, your English translation is excellent and my Spanish is non-existent! 🙂
I still think there is a real possibility that the wingtip (the right one) touched the sea.
Three Canberras flying in V-formation; would they all turn the same way to change course at low level? Probably.
I would expect a great deal of fragmentary damage from the warhead of a missile that exploded close enough to bend part of a wingtip. Is it really steel or aluminium alloy? Also there is no mention of a flash, fireball, sound or blast, just that an impact was ‘felt’ by the pilot.
It is still a great mystery.
Creaking Door…ordered to accelerate and to drop external charges-they came with fuel extreme wing tanks, called ‘tips’, which limit Canberra speed from 500 knots to onlyy 365 knots…
It has just occurred to me that the Lynx crew from HMS Brilliant may have seen the Canberras from this formation dropping their wing-tip-tanks as opposed to seeing the Canberra leader from the other formation circling in search of the shot-down crew. This would possibly explain the ‘bits falling off’ statement and the location and timing of the Canberra / Lynx sighting would make more sense to me.
Once again thanks for posting these accounts; it is very nice to see something from a different perspective.
Creaking DoorI don´t know if a plane touching the sea can still fly and not crash…
Yes, it has happened. The wing could have just clipped a wave perhaps, it wouldn’t take much.
Are you sure it was the right wing…..I don’t see it in the English text?
Creaking DoorThanks for clearing that up…..I’ve obviously got a bit muddled there. It still wasn’t MOD procurement’s finest hour though! 😀
I love the Shackleton…..I’m just glad the RAF never had to go to war in them.
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