Creaking DoorMaybe we should be less concerned with the ‘profiteering’ aspect of the recovered artifacts.
I’ve never taken part in a dig (and I would dearly love to) but, even after the hard work of researching and licensing, from all accounts it is dirty, cold, wet, and financially unrewarding work, so I doubt there are many who would seriously embark upon a dig purely for profit, because you couldn’t make any.
Once material has been recovered, in the name of research, for example then what is to be done with it? If it cannot all be displayed and it is a choice between selling it or throwing it away I know what I would prefer.
And unless it is a very rare type or a particularly historic or mysterious incident are we really ‘destroying’ anything of great value? After all in the ground / sea these relics are certainly doomed. What more could be learnt about a Spitfire or Hurricane with so many flying and so much expertise now built-up?
Finally, perhaps we should be encouraged by the prices these little bits of scrap are now fetching?
Far from being ‘lost’ I imagine if a person has paid good money, often hundreds of pounds, for a relic then I would suggest that he would probably take pretty good care of it. He may do some research himself regarding its history and that research will probably include finding out the names of the young men who fought and died in that aircraft, men who parents are now dead, and who died so young that they hadn’t had the chance to have children of their own…
…if ‘profiteering’ is the price to pay for just one person, who wouldn’t otherwise have done so, to remember even one of these mostly forgotten men then I don’t think that is too high a price to pay, do you?
Creaking DoorYes, it’s a classic!
The main rotor RPM is surprisingly stable…..or is that quite normal for a helicopter? I always assumed it would vary quite a lot as the helicopter maneuvered.
Creaking DoorIf the Falklands War had continued where is the closest airfield to the Falklands that the RAF could have based a squadron of Vulcans (or the new fangled Tornado) for more regular raids on Argentine positions?.
Ascension Island.
I don’t only mean British owned bases, surely there are other nations whose view of the Argentine invasion was such that they would have been willing to play host to the RAF.
No. None.
Creaking DoorThe primary threat to the task force was the Argentinian carrier. This was the only unit that could mount had the capability to mount a credible attack on the UK carriers.
Regrettably the Argentine Navy would not cooperate by putting their air arm to sea so that a speedy conclusion to the problem might be achieved.
Are you saying that the Argentine carrier ARA Veinticinco de Mayo was not part of a combined operation with ARA Belgrano?
Personally I don’t think that the airgroup of only six A-4 Skyhawks armed with 500lb bombs from the ARA Veinticinco de Mayo would have stood a chance against the British Carrier Battle Group. The only Argentine effort to come even close was the Super Etendard / Exocet combination and as is now known even these fired at long range against the first Type-42 picket they encountered.
It is a pity such an encounter didn’t take place as it would have been less controversial and would probably have brought the war to a swifter conclusion with less loss of life. The Argentine pilots involved were eager to take part even though they knew it was suicide and (from a totally selfish armchair-historian point of view) it would have been the only carrier versus carrier action since WW2.
With regard to the British submarines not being in a position to sink the ARA Veinticinco de Mayo because they had managed to ‘lose contact’ well, sorry, I just don’t buy it!
HMS Spartan had been in contact (I think) a few days before and a Sea Harrier from HMS Invincible had also been illuminated by the Sea Dart tracking radar of her escorting Type-42 destroyers. A modern nuclear submarine with all its sophisticated tracking equipment couldn’t find a noisy WW2 vintage carrier and her escorts under those circumstances? Yeah, right!
The bigger picture is that it was important to defeat Argentina without crippling her so much that the balance of power in South America was upset. So, as you say, the political decision was taken to sink the lesser Belgrano. This is just my opinion, of course.
For the same reason the use of Chile for, say, RAF Vulcans would have been out of the question; it would have meant war between Chile and Argentina.
Creaking DoorIs it?
Sinking the Belgrano…..the most controversial action of the war?
Yes.
Creaking DoorActually I think the opposite would be true.
Public resolve to fight the war was at its lowest when HMS Conqueror sank the Belgrano (it is still the most controversial action of the war) but was quickly restored when HMS Sheffield was hit by an Exocet two days later.
If the Canberra had been bombed and set on fire and there had been many casualties (civilians too) I think the outrage would have been directed at the Argentines rather than the British government.
A nuclear submarine torpedoing an Argentine merchant ship taking supplies to the Falklands…..now that would be tricky.
Creaking DoorSevere difficulties were experienced by both sides in supply. The Argentines, with it can be argued the easier supply problem, initially at least, coped far less well than the British. Winter would have made things much worse for both sides but again I would suggest the British would have coped better.
As for losing a British carrier I suppose it depends on when it was lost and which one was lost (HMS Hermes carried 50% more Sea Harriers than HMS Invincible and all the RAF Harriers). After the British landings I don’t think it would have necessarily meant defeat for the British, before the landings it almost certainly would.
After 21st – 25th May the Argentine Air Forces had pretty much shot their bolt, they had fought bravely and inflicted severe losses on the British but had completely failed to disrupt the British landing operations to any real degree. Losses had been unsustainable and future operations would have been conducted with far fewer assets and with the British in a much less vulnerable position.
Even after 25th May when major air operations were attempted they usually resulted in high attrition for relatively limited success.
The islands could have been completely sea blockaded by submarine while most Royal Navy ships returned to the UK for refit and crew rest. The Argentines would be forced to re-supply 25,000 men by air alone during a harsh winter with relatively few transport aircraft (only six or eight C-130 at the start of the war) and a single poor quality runway. The runway could have been shelled by RN warships or brought under artillery fire from British troops on the islands to cause further re-supply problems and transport aircraft losses to add to the weather problems and accidents.
Once the British were ashore in sufficient numbers they were there to stay either in victory or defeat, greater resistance would have resulted in greater casualties on both sides but I think the British would have prevailed in the end.
I don’t think bombing any mainland Argentine airbases was ever seriously contemplated by the RAF; it just wouldn’t have been worth it.
Creaking DoorThe Ta152 was designed by Kurt Tank and was a Focke-Wulf product.
Exactly my point…..I don’t think there was ever a ‘Kurt Tank GmbH/AG’ but the Luftwaffe abbreviation was chosen to reflect the designer rather than the manufacturer.
Creaking DoorCreaking DoorCreaking DoorOne engine only, now on display at la Musée Aéronautique Presqu’Ile Côte d’Amour at la Baule. They have a very good website (French language only – but loads of images) at http://www.mapica.org/modules/epave. It’s well worth a visit.
Yes, the website is certainly worth a visit.
There are more photos than there were before, also the site seems to be in English (unless my ability to read French has greatly improved recently)!
Creaking DoorI think that the museum at la Baule, France, has parts of a Manchester that were trawled up by a fishing boat some years ago. However I’m saying so from memory without checking my facts. So I may have to edit this post in due course!
I did once stumble across a French website that had some photos of Manchester parts dredged up from the sea.
The photos were of the crankshaft-and-connecting-rods assembly only, and very rusted they were too, but the unusual configuration (X-24) gave it away as being from a Manchester.
It wasn’t clear from the website (especially with my poor French) what, if anything, else had been recovered.
Creaking DoorHow long before a more ‘mature’ forum member re-directs us to a previous thread…
…probably from before some of us were born! :diablo:
Anyway, here is my go at this game for us newbies…
Willy Messerschmitt had a small aeroplane company but designed the 109 and 110 for the Nazi regime who wanted to re-arm quickly. So the Nazi regime created a much bigger aeroplane company ‘Bayerflugzeug’ to actually build the 109 and 110 but then sold all the shares (as had been agreed) to Willy Messerschmitt.
And the Luftwaffe system was to abbreviation the manufacturer rather than the designer in the designation…
…(so both ways are correct)…..until they got to the Ta152? :confused:
How did I do? 🙂
Creaking DoorWork seems to have stopped on the fuselage which has been stored / displayed at the back of one of the hangars for several years now. Of course work may be ongoing with wings or engine.
Is this project actually part of the collection even, or is it just housed there?
Creaking DoorI’m not taking sides on any ‘personal’ argument here but let us be very careful here…
I was not aware that it is common practice for items to be sold on irrespective of the licensing issue. Fair comment. Perhaps then it would be hard for the MOD to come down on…..this activity when there may be evidence to support a claim that this practice has been carried out previously.
…this is just the sort of loophole the MOD could decide to close for the sake of ‘bureaucratic tidiness’…..all recovered material would remain in MOD custody.
And we all know how well the MOD is likely to tread untidy wreckage…..no matter how historically important. :rolleyes:
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