PondskaterIt seems the British library do have a full set – well they should really.
This entry on their catalogue covers 1909 to 1961: http://catalogue.bl.uk/F/B2RXG2KDYIT8XSAFHGF4HR3EJKLHDH9U47N4AAIEPISBI3QK3J-15985?func=full-set-set&set_number=128185&set_entry=000047&format=999
But, for those of us who can’t get to the capital easily, does anybody know of any other libraries which have copies of Flight (or Aeroplane)? There is an incomplete set at Manchester Central Library – but I don’t yet know just how incomplete.
Shortsbro: I do have – literary – one or two magazines from that period. What are you looking for specifically?
PondskaterDaveF68 may have it – there might not have been a standard picture sign prior to the current one.
All our signs were designed in the late 50s early 60s by Jock Kinneir and Margaret Calvert and when a uniform signage system was introduced across Europe it was the UK designs that were adopted. See http://www.designmuseum.org/design/jock-kinneir-margaret-calvert
Our current signs are design classics.
Moggy’s link shows what existed before. It even shows one with an RAC badge – in the early days both the AA and RAC able to put up warning and direction signs. But allowing many people to put up their own signs means there might have been a rare aircraft warning sign out there in a single location. Anybody know?
PondskaterIt’s the passenger handling stuff that would still requite building even for a flying boat. You couldn’t just pull into a harbour and putter out in a motor boat any more.
Quite right Moggy. Even in the late 1930s puttering was out of fashion – Imperial Airways was building flying boat docks at places such as Southampton. In 1943 a study on the future for flying boats proposed floating semi-covered docks (see pics). And of course, you’d need a supply of aviation fuel stored at the habour and able to be supplied to the aircraft.
PS Thanks to all those who posted the P6M material. Good looking aircraft huh?
Very nice – but equally you can never have too many photos of Beriev’s flying boats.
Pondskater[COLOR=”Blue”]Remember, it’s more than just a case of designing or building an aircraft.
Someone (airline, government) has to have a USE for such a plane and be willing to purchase and operate it.
I’d think if there was a need or market for such a large seaplane…somebody would have built it by now.
Indeed – the comparison with the Hughes Spruce Goose and Saro Princess may be particularly apt.
PondskaterThe two bigger seaplanes are Hughes Hercules and Saunders-Roe Princess which were clearly not in service
If Beriev ever build it, the Beriev 2500 amphibian would have a max weight of 2,500 metric tons 😮
Pondskater[I]Here is a transcript of a letter sent by F/O Gleig who was on the aircraft when it crashed.
I’m not too sure about the word Pinnace as it was difficult to make out the letters in his handwriting
Steve,
Welcome to the forum – and thanks for posting that. Very moving. So many aircraft were lost that it is easy to count the statistics. But behind every one there is a personal tale such as this that should be remembered.
Pinnace seems correct in both cases.
I’ve spoken to many who said that glossy (or sometimes glassy) water landings were very hazardous – a flat surface meant the pilot would see through the water and sometimes only see the bottom of the lake, making judging height very hard. Even more so at night.
W4036 was one of the first MkIII Sunderlands, built in Rochester and delivered to 201 squadron in July 42 where she stayed until the accident.
Good luck with the search – I’d be happy to help with more info if I can.
Allan
PondskaterOh and Pondskater – they’ve got a Sunderland across the road… )
Surely a Sandringham? F-OBIP converted from Sunderland III JM719 😉
And it’s on my travel plans – if only the girlfriend didn’t think the Louvre was better. 🙂
Allan
Hoping to become a real enthusiast
PondskaterDoes anyone have any idea if this absolute treasure of an aircraft still exists?
What a find that would be for the RNZAF Musuem or a collection here in NZ. Personally I think the Singapore is one of the most majestic, charismatic and elegant flying boats of the 1930’s.
Dave,
Amazing – not heard about this before but what a treasure it would be. None of the Short Brothers biplane flying boats have survived. It was be important for New Zealand but, to be honest, it would have international significance as the only survivor of the breed.
K6917 would be a Singapore III.
Its chances of survival are, I suppose, remote being dependent on it having a continued use as a houseboat all these years, rather than somebody wanting to use the dural for something else. It would be dural – early Singapores had a stainless steel planning hull but it was changed for these later models.
I’m afraid my connections with Fiji are very limited but I’ll keep a watch out on this.
All the best
Allan
PondskaterA few thoughts on wet aircraft (I love that phrase!) in chronological order:
Jan 17 1902 – a claim that Gustav Whitehead flew a flying boat a circular distance of 7 miles. A highly controversial claim pre-Wright Brothers – feel free to discuss, with evidence if you can. (1)
June 6 1905 Gabriel Voisin flew a float plane glider that was towed aloft from the Seine, the first flight from water. (1 + 4)
1909 – Garbardini flying boat built (2) But it seems to have not flown?
March 28 1910 Henri Fabre flew his hydravion from the harbour at Marseilles, the first powered flight from water, as mentioned above. Quite strange float design. (thanks for the pics Wieesso) (4)
Jan 26 1911 Glenn Curtiss takes off from San Diego Harbour in his hydro-aeroplane (on floats). (2)
Nov 18 1911 Cmdr Oliver Schwann attempts to fly an Avro D float plane from Barrow dockyard but, after lurching into the air, the plane crashes. This is often called the first flight from water in Britain but being first to the scene of your accident doesn’t really count. (2 + 3)
25 Nov 1911 Oscar Gnosspelius. Windermere, Lake District. Lifted successfully but crashed due to the pilots inexperience. Gnosspelius was the first to put a step in the floats. (3)
25 Nov 1911 Waterbird, Windermere, Lake District. Flown by Herbert Stanley Adams in a machine built for Edward Wakefield by A V Roe. The real first flight from water in the British Empire. (3)
April 2nd 1912 Sydney Sippe flew the Avro D from Barrow dock successfully. First flight from seawater in Britain. (3)
1915 the Langley Machine was reworked by Glenn Curtiss fitted with floats and flown successfully from water.(2)
A couple of questions still to answer though – when was the first flight from water in the UK – Schwann’s crash or Adam’s flight and safe landing? Does lifting from the water but then crashing really count as flying?
Are there any other early flights not here?
The majority of these flights were floatplanes rather than flying boats. I suspect that is because they were copying ideas successfully proved on land. Indeed, Wakefield’s A V Roe design was tested on land first. Two basic methods of float design were hydroplanes and stepped hulls. Both principles were known before flights from water were attempted. Glen Curtiss used a hydrofoil for his first flight but dispensed with it later.
Another reason water was chosen was the idea that a crash into water would be more survivable than onto land (as long as you didn’t get tangled in the wreckage and drown!) Voisin and Wakefield both stated this a reason for choosing to fly from water. (4 +3)
It is now in the Grande Gallerie of the Musée de l’Air at Le Bourget.
Melvyn, thanks for that – I didn’t realise that Fabre’s plane was on display – which I suppose says something for my enthusiasm.
Allan
Not a true aviation enthusiast
Sources
1. Milestones of Flight, Janes, 1983.
2. Jane’s Historical Aircraft 1902-1916, Janes, 1917
3. In the Shadow of the Eagle’s Wing: History of Aviation in Cumbria, Dumfries and Galloway, Peter Connon. Private published.1982
4 Aeromarine Origins, H F King, Putnam, 1966.
PondskaterSo – how did it go for everybody this morning? Did you get what you wanted?
I had my eye on a very nice photo album but it sold for four times the estimate 😮 and twice what I bid 🙁
And sorry HP – it wasn’t in your bit of the auction.
PondskaterDave,
Very early – in fact pretty much from the beginning. It seems that the fact that a body of water gives a long flat surface was appealing to many early aviators – but overcoming the problems of breaking free from surface tension was not well understood for some time. You will notice the steps in all flying boat hulls and seaplane floats to pull air under the float and lift it from the water, but somebody had to discover that first.
First powered flight was Henri Fabre – south of France about 1909/1910. I’ll look up the date for you tonight and post some more thoughts.
All the best
Allan
PondskaterA Dakota was flying south fairly low through the central Lake District this evening – at about 7.30pm over Ambleside and away over Windermere. A bit far away against a bright sky to see markings but it had invasion stripes.
I only half looked at first expecting the usual Hercules but the engine note was wrong. Anybody got an idea about where she might have been from?
Lovely to see it though. 🙂
PondskaterGood luck with the Ranchero XRX61.
There is one official example I’m aware of where an RAF roundel was used on a car: It would have to be a Spitfire, of course. Triumph used it on bonnet badges for their MkIIIs but it was only used on cars sold in the USA during 1970. How obscure is that?
And also attached is an entirely gratuitous shot of my own MkIII Spitfire taken a few years ago. Gratuitous Spitfire photos are allowed here aren’t they. :diablo:
PondskaterBut that would be a follow-on from the TR8 (Triumph cum Leyland?) that was, I think, a TR7 with a bigger engine rather than a Spitfire.
Yes – BMW kept the new Mini and all the historic “badges” when they sold Rover a few years ago.
So if BMW want to produce a Triumph TR9 they have inherited that right. They can also produce cars branded as Austin, Morris, Wolsley, Riley, Standard etc if they so wished – or sell/licence the brands to others. But nobody wants them.
The last TR was the TR8 – basically a TR7 with a Rover V8 engine.
Perhaps something more like this one?
Very nice Chris but on the six-cylinder TR6 the exhausts exit from the other side of the engine.
I’m sorry – this is an aviation forum and I’ve got the wrong anorak on 😮
PondskaterIIRC, it (Sperrin) was ordered as a stopgap in case the Valiant failed.
Yep – that’s about right. Basically a conventional design which allowed the other V-bomber designs to risk being much more radical. It had a number of novel features but was a docile and trouble free aircraft. If needed they could have been put into production without trouble. As it was the country got a couple of flying test beds.
and probably to give Short Bros something to do.
Sounds a bit harsh but probably right 🙂 It wouldn’t have been the first time that the government wanted to be seen to tackle unemployment in the province – and they had nationalised Short Brothers in 1943.
On the question of defence cuts or fatigue which took the Valiant out of service – surely both. The cost of the repairs was high so the government ordered the aircraft to be scrapped.
Sign In
