Turbina, NATO was set up as a defensive pact, where if one country was attacked it would be considered an attack on all. The US invoked this after 9/11, which I believe this is the only time this has been invoked.

Now remember the key word is ‘defensive,’ many if not most NATO countries do not consider the operations in Afghanistan to be defensive, and so do not consider that they are under any obligation to provide troops. I for one and a great many other people agree with this view.

Indeed you could argue that since the end of the Cold War, America and especially the current administration, has sought to convert NATO into a form of modern day Dellian league; a pool of extra military forces which can be called on to ‘subsidise’ and support the American military. It is this feeling that we are becoming little more than American client states that is leading to the growing Anti-Americanism both in the UK and mainland Europe.

Moving on, the fact is that if a cause is just you will have no problems raising armies to right injustices (witness the liberation of Kuwait). Huge numbers of us, consider America’s current military adventures to be at best ill advised and at worst criminal, so is it any wonder that anti-American sentiement is growing? and troops not forthcoming?

To suggest that people just ‘put a lid,’ on such sentiments ie. should just shut up, shows on your part a disdain for other people’s opinions and the concept of freedom of speech. This is a discussion forum and discussion involves listening to other people and if what they say is valid modifying you own opinions.

Nuff said, Steve.

Question; do any of the early Avro built 748s Survive? and how many did Avro build?

Steve.

Well said Phrozenflame,

I live in Luton, one of my nieghbours is Muslim great guy, as are a large number of other people whom I know or work with – no problems what so ever. I’ve travelled fairly widely in the Islamic world with no problems, and will be visiting both Jordan and Egypt later this year.

In the past I’ve blundered into a madressa in Istanbul, only to be given apple tea and a guided tour, taught in a school where 75% of the kids were muslim all of whom were super and very respectful, sat down and chatted at length with both a local Iman and Catholic priest over a cup of tea. Never have I ever had any problems or felt intimidated.

To me fear of the Islamic world because of the actions of a minority is irrational, yes I was worried on 7/7 because my girlfriend works in London, but to blame the Muslims I know because of the actions of a few would be insane.

Steve.

Phantom II;

If you read my post, word for word, you will notice it says ‘if your military are all taking such negativity…,’ note the word ‘IF’ this makes the statement conditional and therefore NOT a generalisation.

Or was Churchill right that Britain and America are two countries divided by a common language?

Also we have seen violent responses from fundamentalist Christians upon people they see as ‘ungodly,’ for instance attacks upon abortion clinics and the murders of several gynaecologists who perform such procedures.

I would suggest you look at this link:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/intol_news.htm

Which contains details of such actions and others…..
Steve.

Phantom II, you weren’t the only one who was unprepared for what happened in Iraq, it appears that both your nation’s most senior political and military leadership weren’t either.

However before the invasion, we had a peace rally in Hyde Park to which it is reputed over 2 million people went. Speaker after speaker warned of exactly this state of affairs. Did our nation’s leaders listen……NO of course they didn’t, they played the patriotism card, the intelligence card and any other cards they could think of.

As a ‘military’ man do you really trust such buffoons to decide to put your life on the line? or are you prepared to just obey orders and assume they have better judgement?

But what really worries me is your earlier post in which you express your dislike for Arabs, becasue if your military are all taking such negativity with them to Iraq then things are only going to get worse and worse.

Steve.

If we take the old principle that ‘actions speak louder than words’ then we might argue theat extreme actions are a form of shouting. As it tends to be political/religous extremists who take the most extreme actions, can we actually ‘hear’ the moderates over the din of bombs and small arms fire? and how does this distort our views?

Also it’s worth remembering that the Jewish/Christian/Islamic god, is actually quite a violent character who has a partialiality for genocide (witness the flood, Sododm & Gomorah etc) and promises to end the world with an orgy of violence and torture against the ungodly (Ref. Book of Revelation). Now if you worship a god who behaves in this way it becomes quite simple in theological terms to justify the perpetration of attrocities in his name, as surely he would approve of you smitting his enemies and the ungodly, thus proving yourself righteous.

This of course has been done by all three named religions on a fairly regular historical basis. Indeed today we are seeing extreme clerics stoking the fires of hell in all three religions. Extreme Zionist Rabbis egging Jews on against Palastians, Pat Robertson encouraging his flock against Muslims, and assorted Mullahs in the UK (both with and without hooks for hands!) against the ‘west.’

Nor do they necessarily tollerate other factions within their own religions (ie. I once heard a Pentecostal minister publicly claim the Catholics aren’t Christian!, and violence between Sunni & Shia Muslims).

The underlying problem is the way in which these religions define good and evil: us and them (ie. as many ‘fudementalist’ churches teach if you ain’t a born again Christian you’re going to hell, no matter how good a person you’ve been). This automatically builds barriers between religous groups, other religions, and secular society. They also tend to have a hard and fast morality (ie. the Ten Comandments) which discourages ethical reasoning. So even the more moderate members end up with a blinkered view of the world, which stunts genuine spitual growth.

It is therefore I contend formal religions that are the problem whatever they are.

Steve.

Ok, Years ago I worked for a publisher; on my first morning I walked through the main office, where there sat the most striking woman I’ve ever seen, tall, intense looking and dressed with an incredibly stylish eccentricity.

Later at my new desk and over coffee I enquired who she was. “Oh Maureen, she’s our witch,’ came the reply.

Right no such thing as witches……wrong.

All kind of wierd things happened around Maureen, but the one I really remember was Norman a little Jew who sat next to me and his wife had been trying for years for a child. One morning Maureen walked through our office, suddenly piroeted on a stilleto heel and asked Norman if she could read his palm.

Taking his hand in hers and without looking at it she stared Norman in the eye and said “April 10th, 10.30am little girl,” smiled and was off.

As this date was ten months off, all the programmers laughed. However knowing Maureen, we all deep down inside knew this would happen and the date and time was duely knoted and recorded on calenders and diaries.

We were right to believe for and 10:25 on the appointed date Norman’s wife had a healthy baby girl. To this day I am convinced that that the clock in the hospital was wrong and she was actually born at 10:30.

Steve.

Yes it’s a bl**dy disgrace, but then it’s not the politicians lives that are endangered by not having it.

Steve.