– I thought that the current sales were: 176 x Sweden, 28 x South Africa, 14 x Hungary and 14 x Czech Republic = 232 aircraft for 4 countries, out of which 56 were export orders. This should be compared to Dassault’s Rafale, which has scored 0 (zero) export orders, or Eurofighter’s Typhoon, which has scored 18 export orders. So I would rather say that they’re doing quite well at the export market compared to their competitors – and I believe that’s what counts. You can’t really do much about the fact that most western countries are suffering from major defence cuts.

The whole fighter market is not limited to western air forces, right? 😉
Sure the Eurofighters 18 exports is very small but it starts out at a hefty 600+ units fort the four home countries, that is almost the triple of the Swedish Gripen order. At the same time if the news regarding the long term storage of over 100 Gripen A/B units and disbandment of half of the current operational wings in Swedish service the whole industrial program could come down as a fenomenal house of cards. Less operational units mean less investment in post sale support and a higher maintenance cost in the near future…

– In the 1980’s, the swedish airforce told Saab that they were only interested in a Gripen program if it were to be more cost efficient than buying F-16’s, and if it were capable of delivering performance (exceeding or) according to their (ie the swedish airforce’s) specification. Therefore I dare to say that the critical mass you’re talking about were achieved in the mid 90’s when ‘delserie 3’ was ordered by the swedish government.

– Czech republic is leasing their fighters on a 10 years basis. Hungary had a similar agreement but have already decided to buy theirs after these 10 years.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe the Gripen is a fabulous fighter I just think that Sweden lacks the political and economic punch needed to be successful selling against the West Europeans and the Americans.

The Rafale is shaping up to be a very expensive international failure (if they loose again in Singapore it gets even worse!) On the same period Sukhoi managed to sell over 400 jets to some 4 new countries… A new player with a great airplane at a cut throat price tag.

10 years in the future especially in countries like Hungary undergoing tremendous changes in the economical and political scenarios is a VERY long time, who can with some degree of confidence have any idea what will the government in charge then do, I wouldn’t even try to guess…

– Revealing regarding what? British Aerospace has probably meant a lot to the Nato integration projects for C/D versions, but their help at the export market can be summarized with one word – failure. The South African deal was won by Saab in 1997 before Bae was involved in Gripen International, Hungary and Czech Republic was a government to government agreement and the Thai interest in Gripen was revealed after Bae decided to bail out. But there was one thing Bae was very much involved in – the Chilean deal. According to some sources (such as the paper ‘Flygrevyn’) the chilean deal was more or less done for Saab when Great Britain decided to arrest Pinochet. Since Gripen International was partly owned by the british, they were defamed by this.

You should also take into account that Bae has interests in both Eurofighter Typhoon, F-35 JSF and Jas-39 Gripen. This is getting quite problematic – imagine that Eurofighter Typhoon are put up against Jas-39 Gripen in a tender. Which one of them do you think they would try to sell? Probably the one giving the highest profit. If this happens to be Typhoon – what do you think the relationship between Bae and Saab would be like?

regards,
Castor

The BAe connection would only have made any sense if the Eurofighter had been canceled and the Gripen selected as its replacement but unfortunately for SAAB this never happened. The conflict of interests in the BAE SAAB marriage has been evident from the start, I supose that if the Swedes had any other option they might have taken it. They almost partnered with Embraer some years ago but they fumbled this one also and a Dassault/MBDA/SNECMA/Thales consortium closed the deal purchasing 20% of the Brazilian company’s shares.

Regards,

Hammer

Add to this that the complete infrastructure had to be altered. Additionally the costs of integrating weapons and adapt the avionics. The Indians where somehow succesful in doing so, but do you expect an order the size of the Indian deal ? Including weapons, spares, infrastructure, customization,… The JSF or F-18E will be cheaper to buy and to run. And heck what do you want to learn from assembling a Sukhoi ? They are pretty conservativ in design, don’t you think ? Where are the new materials/bonding methods ? 😮

Well Aurel that’s the exactly the point I am trying to make, as long as people remain trapped in this “old fashioned” point of view the more money US companies will make out of other countries air forces. There has to be competition, At least in order to drive prices down. Look at what happend to the F-22 how can one ettempt to justify it’s 350Mil US$ price tag? The JSF is going the same way, just wait and see. In reality HOW DIFFERENT CAN A Su-30 be? the use the same fuel, the same lubricants, the same tools (many other aircraft manufacturers ar using Metric Standard tools, not just the Russians, you know… 🙂 ) The use of western avionics and EFIS cockpit in the Su-30MKI is a relevant step forward for the Flanker. Additionaly I agree the russiansd have a different design culture created since the early 20thj century but after the fall of the USSR there has been tremendous change in the aerospace sector especialy a great attention to western style performance and maintenance indicators. Hardly there’s another country with so many university graduated doctors on the Aerospace field as in current day Russia, if there is a country able to reinvent itself its Russia.

Comments

[]s Hammer

The Gripen program isn’t doing all that bad.Hungary,South Africa and the Czech Rep. have all selected the Gripen.Thailand I heard were going to order it to replace their F-5s.Bulgaria,Switzerland and Slovakia are also interested in the Gripen to replace their Mig-29s and F/A-18s.Informal discussions have also been held with India and Pakistan.
While it may noy be in serve with many countries yet,it does appear to be going better then the Eurofighter 2000 and Rafale programs as far as exports.

Maybe not in terms of new users but the numbers sold are puny…. There’s no critical mass to the program, no Indian-style order for 150 units garanteeing a ten-year long production line….. generating revenue for post sale support services and mid-life upgrades…

Hungary = 14 Czech =14 SAfrica=19 Total 47 units!

On top of this the european countries are actualy leasing their aircraft so they can be returned to Sweden easily after the expiration date… 🙁

The fact that BAE Systems this year bailed out of this program is very revealing to me….

Comments?

Regards

Hammer

Besides India what other air forces could possibly be able to place large orders of Gripen fighters? Anyone care to speculate?

Regards

Hammer

What about the SU=30 and Su32? Could Australia eventualy use them?

Regards

Hammer

I wrote this to the NATO standards body (NSA) :

=========================
Dear sirs,

I was told recently about a cancelled STANAG document on aircraft
camouflage patterns. I wonder if it would be possible for you to supply it
to me so I can be able to complete an article on the historical evolution
of camouflage patterns in the west.

I understand this STANAG 3687 has been cancelled since 3.11.93.

=========================

and all I got was:

========
I am sorry but this will not be possible.

A. Wilson

🙁

i think by its very nature a jet fighter of the quality of the j10 should have a name, a good one too! ive never gotten over the mig 21 being codenamed fishbed. really!!!

But this was the very nature of the ASCC names, to be definetly “un-sexy”!

I thing things went the other way with the T-144 “Charger” SEXY! LOL By the time the Flanker and Fulcrum where announced the were already great marketing names, no western (neither Russian or Chinese by the way) top line Ad Agency could come up with such strong and powerful names.

Besides the Fishbed other downright nasty and demeaning ASCC codes for fighters in my oppinion are: “Madcap”, “Flora”, “Frogfoot”, “Farmer” and “Feather”

Comments?

Hammer