HammerBrazil has an ongoing bid for a logistics ship that seems to be not as complex as the Karel Doorman, on the other side Brazil has a significant interest in the Thales I-Mast system that could end up equipping our next four frigates and five new 6000 ton frigates, commonality has certainly a great value although this ship would not help us to develop our indigenous shipbuilding industry one of the core reasons behind the whole military re-equipment program… There you have it some pros and certainly some cons….
Comments?
Hammer
Hammerthobbes, be careful when using such umbrella-expressions as “pro-Western” as they can mean almost anything (or nothing) in the end. Usually they’ve come to mean “Pro-US” but in our post-Cold War scenario not everything that is “Pro-US” really automatically translates to “Pro Western”… Remember the highly contested US invasion of Iraq? I find it so curious that whenever the US uses its veto powers in the UNSC it is just “defending the UN Charter”, on the contrary when Russians and Chinese do the same they are just being “cynical”… These puerile in the media double standards really make me laugh. Veto power was granted to all the five WW2 victors each one of them found that these powers were justified then so what is the surprise when one of the other powers makes use of them… Who knows maybe only the US ought to have veto powers… 😉
As an example Germany is certainly “Western” but i don’t see it being interventionist in any way.
Comments,
Hammer
HammerAny clue on who could be a future owner for the new Karel Doorman, India, perhaps? They seem to be buying everything… 😉
Regards,
Hammer
HammerMaybe the current “one member one veto vote” may have to be changed in the case of an expanded membership of the UNSC. Think instead: eight members and two “no” votes for one veto… This could make it work.
Regards,
Hammer
HammerThis is a very interesting “what if” topic especially because when last year I spent a week on board the Charles de Gaulle Aircraft carrier the French admiral commanding the French Groupe Aeronaval demonstrated special interest in current South American countries’ support for Argentinian claims in the Falklands. His question referred to the South Atlantic but his mind was really on several French island possessions located around the world (St Pierre and Miquellon, French Antilles, Wallis and Futuna, Mayotte, etc). So this topic may still have real world repercussions. 😉 Comments?
HammerWhy on Earth would Brazil use so much funding just to get to be the SA military “super” Power..?
But wait! they aren’t and will never do it eighter.
What’s the point, its not like other Nation Down there have anything that would justice such politics eighter.
Let me get something clear here… Brazil does not want to be South Americas “super” power, IT IS the unquestionable super power in the continent period. having said that do we use our (very real) military might (always associated with our 8.5 million sq km land area) to blackmail smaller neighboring countries into conforming to our geopolitical and economic desires, no we don’t. Brazil`s economy represents 50% of the economy of the whole of South America. Brazil is the world’s 7th or 8th largest economy, to our politicians this alone qualifies us to take a larger role and have a larger say in the world’s key affairs. Brazil does not want to be a Regional power it wants to be a Global power, the same aspiration that the UK, France, Russia and China established powers for years want to retain and that India wants to assert for itself. Our greatest perceived “threat” is to be cornered by the USA or by other current powers and to have to accept a status quo that is not in our best national interest. Differently from Australia, that has since the retreat of the Royal Navy from the Pacific felt “abandoned and exposed” to the greed of non-white regional power states (first Japan, then Indonesia and more recently China), Brazil has never looked up to the US military power as an Umbrella protection to its own national survival. Recent news that Brazil has been the focus of significant NSA intelligence scrutiny only reasserts this idea that the US has been and is much more an economic rival then an actual global partner. This does not mean we expect to go to war with the US any time soon but it is clear that we don’t expect to get any key leverage from them. Brazil wants to have a permanent seat on the UN Security council, politicians from all sides of the national political spectrum agree to this. India and Germany have joined Brazil to this common intent and common support to each others UNSC seat claims. If our three countries decide that they will never be let into the “club” it is certain that they will start to work in concert to lobby the full UN assembly to end once and for all the unique powers of the UNSC members. Comments?
HammerYes Embraer has been one of the most efficient global aircraft manufacturers in taking advantage of unexplored niches in the world market. But be careful not to put in the same basket civilian commercial product lines such as biz jets and light civilian transports with advanced weaponized military products such as supersonic fighters. Since most of Embraer’s corporate revenue comes from their civilian line it is absolutely not to their advantage to have this civilian line “pay” for sales of indigenous supersonic fighters to countries that are no the best of friends with the US.
Regards,
Hammer
hey stud.
well thats why i said, sell a niche product the US does not sell. Just like how Embraer does well because it has no competition from Boeing or Airbus.
and that area right now is light fighters
HammerThe Supertucano ia a lightweight “fighter” presenting almost zero concern to the US…
Which did not prevent them from sending a super tucano at pas 13, with a very interesting pilot btw 😉
http://portail-aviation.blogspot.fr/2013/06/interview-dun-pilote-de-super-tucano.html
HammerAPAR isn’t German, it’s a Thales product, backed by the Netherlands & Canada (although in the end, Canada didn’t buy it) as well as Germany. I don’t know what radar Thales offers for the I-mast 500. The I-mast 400 on the Holland class OPVs has the Sea Master 400.
Correct! APAR is Dutch BUT what I wanted really to point that APAR was part of the German F124 frigate originally offered to Brazil, nothing else.
I-Mast 500 is an extension of the basic 400 model I-Mast adding enhanced Anti Air capabilities in the same capacity level as APAR.
Regards
HammerSo Embraer wants more Embraer?
Embraer should make its own aircraft then.
maybe work with the Koreans or Turks who are desparate for partners.
Like any privately owned corporations wants the Brazilian government to prioritize defense programs that give it the largest share of governmental investment. What`s so unique in this point of view? On the other hand developing, building and especially exporting advanced fighter aircraft is sure to expose the company to US restrictions or even sanctions, things very bad for the prospect of exporting Brazilian civilian/commercial aircraft, Embraer’s cash cow, to the largest market in the world, the US…
Comments,
Regards
Hammer
HammerGuys please cut Jungle Boy some slack, he is just echoing the general impatient and disheartened mood that we have been recently taking hold of many of our defense related internet forums. It is true that the lack of contracts signed this year clearly symbolizes the Brazilian government’s significant economic-related unease. The local currency has sharply devalued in comparison to the US dollars and the (government induced) heated internal demand for gas and diesel is uncomfortably multiplying the international payments deficit. So naturally this is far from the best moment to create new dollar-denominated debts. The truth is that ALL the military reequipement plans are still valid. The times may have slipped but the plan is still the same. 15 diesel electric subs, six nuclear powered subs two aircraft carriers, a new northern fleet base, thirty new surface warships, etc. The National Defence Strategy breaks Brazil’s main military interest in two areas: a) The Amazon and b) the South Atlantic Ocean that hasn’t changed at all. Brazilian newly built OPVs have been calling regularly on African nations to try to build long term international relationships focused in developing their own armed forces, especially navies. In October one of these OPVs, probably BNS Apa, will go to Angola for their national day commemorations. It is true we don’t have any clear and present “enemy at the gates” but the Government is starting to understand that there is a good geopolitical payback in assisting our neighbors on how to better use their own military means. The Brazilian defense industry is the key player in this process, it is they’re ability to leverage government investment and to turn it into exportable goods and services that is really pushing the military reequipement plans forward. The Brazilian defense industry is currently not structured in its final ideal configuration and many of our deep pocketed giant construction companies are still examining what is the the most effective way forward for them… as soon as this economic turmoil passes contracts are bound to be signed. Money for the four diesel electric and for the first SSN is flowing and progress is happening at a brisk (actually unheard of before in Brazil military history) pace. The same can be said about Embraer’s upcoming KC-390 airlifter, everything is on track and all the milestones are being met as planned. This last month alone the first modernized AM-X attack fighter was delivered to the Brazilian Air Force and the first modernized A-4Ku has been returned to the Brazilian Naval Aviation. The “news” of second hand aircraft and ships is no more than internet gossip that gets repeated in the highly frustrated environment of the Forums, just that. No Brazilian armed forces is REALLY considering the purchase of second hand aircraft or ships. If it does not mean new hightech jobs and transfer of technology for the local industry it is just not going to happen. The main reason behind the repeated delays of the F-X2 fighter bid is the fact that it just does not interest Embraer that much, to it government 2 billion US dollar investment makes much more sense on the KC390 (100% Embraer AND obviously much more easily exportable) then on any F-X2 fighter that might be selected. Without strong industry demand for it the expensive next gen fighter tends to languish in government investment priorities. Prosuper is still on, recently sources at the Ministry of Defense have pointed at a possible win by Germany with a hybrid frigate based on the F124 hull design but equipped with the Thales Nederlands I-Mast 500 and with MBDA Aster missiles in place of the German original APAR radar and the US Standart air defense missiles… But to the Brazilian Navy the first priority is to get the new Brazilian corvette program going. This is parallel to the Prosuper but uses the Barroso hull with the Thales I-Mast 100 and a brand new stealth design superstructure. Start of construction on the first of this class is expected for Nov-Dec next year. The corvette`s redesign is ongoing right now. Four of these will be manufactured in Brasil in the first production tranche. On the Army purchase of new anti aircraft artilery (jointly with the air force) is moving and just some days ago the ministry published the order for the set up of an evaluation/negotiation team to finalize the purchase from Russia of Igla MANPADS and for three full batteries of Pantsir S-1 one for each armed force. Production of the Guarani APC is running with the first batch already in tests around the country. So if you brush away the impatience you see that much is actually happening at this moment. Best Regards, Hammer
HammerHi Swerve
Sorry to but in this late into this thread but I believe that there is a manner in which the Argentinians could get away with removing the British residents “temporarily” from the Falklands Islands IF they said it was being done for their own security. Protection from the hazards from an unintended but unpredictable confrontation with the British in their “counter invasion”. By doing this it would be “humanitarian” movement in nature not “ethnic cleansing” by any means. They would keep the title to their properties and would be allowed to return to the islands (in the company of some 6000 native Argentinians for sure) once the military crisis subdued.
The luck of the British is that the petty right-left issues of the K couple has guaranteed that it would be the Argentinian Government the ones to destroy the Argentinian Military forces, not the British Armed Forces…
If the 82 invasion happened closer to the winter July/August the British Task Force would have found it much harder to do anything really useful in military terms like they were able to in April and May.
Finally I believe that the most realistic pressure strategy for the Argentinians in the case of the Falklands would be to buy modern hardware and specially submarines in good numbers (10-12) large cargo planes and tankers (KC390?) and use them with a reasonable number long range fighters (Flankers?) armed with modern missiles and stand off munitions. News of this alone would force the British Govenment to ramp up their military expenses in protecting the islands to the point of making it untenable, economically speaking. Finally the Argentinian quest for the Falklands isn`t set to end any time soon, since this is clearly a nation-wide issue that widely transcends the smaller political survival needs of the Military Junta of 1982. That is all. 🙂
Best Regards
Hammer
HammerWhat about Algeria? Are their Stereguchshiys still on?
Regards,
Hammer
Indonesia?
Thai and pakistan uses both western and chinese ships.
HammerWell leon, Sorry but I don`t have complete deck by deck blueprints for these ships but if I remember correctly I did publish some pictures of the emergency exit schematics for one or both of them, I hope it helps.
Regards,
Hammer
I was asking for blueprints – to use it to build ship models of them.
Of many research ships plans are available on-line, e.g. of German and US American ships.
E.g. R/V Knorr:
http://www.whoi.edu/main/ships/knorr/layout-berthing-diagramsMaria S. Merian (pdf files):
http://www.maria-s-merian.de/index.php?id=34
http://www.maria-s-merian.de/index.php?id=33Polarstern (pdf file):
http://www.awi.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Research/Research_Divisions/Climate_Sciences/chiaventone/Polarstern/Handbuchweb.pdf
HammerThey now joined the ranks of the navies going “both ways”: Europe and Russia… First Gepards and now SIGMAS. Reasonable but expensive strategy.
Who else is doing this besides India?
Comments?
Hammer
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