I tried to attach it many times but it rejected it and said ”invalid type”…..if one is interested I will be happy to send it to your e-mail.

Note the webmaster announcment about attachments 😉

You did not pay attention to what I wrote.
I said that in 1973 Yom Kippur war American pilots intervened to help Israelis with their latest TV guided stand-off missiles to cut the pass through Arab SAM umbrella shooting from the great distances. Manned Israeli a/c armed with bombs were falling like a leaves. That was the only way to overpower SAM batteries.

In 1882 war there were no American intervention but Israelis have got the latest American TV/command link guided missiles (GBU-15) again for shooting from stand-off distances.
That was the main reason for Israeli success against SAM batteries. Domestic Zeev missiles including.

I am saying again; IAF did not dare to attack SAM-6 and SAM-8 batteries with manned bomb armed aircraft. That would have been lethal. They have been attacked from great distances. Lesson have been learned from Yom Kippur war.

SAM-6 tracking radars have been unjammable because of its nature. Fast frequency changing and combined CW-pulse tracker. First in the world. I am aeronautical engineer, I know what I am saying.

Israeli pilots know that all too well.

Look.
I bring you sources of information. Why won’t you do the same to back your claims? For one example that comes in my mind, show me pictures and technical data about the super-duper-secret “Zeev” missiles.
And I don’t mean sources about the 1973 war. And the stuff about American pilots in the war, total BS. They barely agreed to give us the airlifts. Try and get some info about the US-Israeli relationship at that time. It wasn’t all roses as it is today.
And if you look through the lists in F-16.net, you’ll see both that the dates of the crashes aren’t during any war, and in some of the cases they even wrote the cause of the crashes.

And if I may ask, what is your country of origin?
Because unless you’re a Russian or an Arab, you can find much more serious sources of information about the Israeli airforce. Because the Russians and the arabs have a good reason to try to cover up the facts. It was an Arab operated, Russian made equipment that was lost. Obviously cover ups were made. It would damage the business for the Russians, and morale for the arabs.

hat is a pure lie articel. The vase is the ACIG article which describes an incident that happened in 2001. The new article has left out the real date and makes it look like the shoot downs would have happened in 2004, which is simply not true.

Not to mention that the so called 2001 incident is just as doubted.

How can you state that Americans have not been involved with their U-2/SR-71 reccon a/c there in 1982 conflict ?

Middle East is their routine area for intelligence gathering.
Do not tell me that Israeli Air Force did not have all intelligence information from Americans.

Regarding Israeli UAV’s, it is true that Americans procured your UAV’s, but these were, as you know, small tactical reccon drones, which had nothing in common with strategic reccon aircraft like SR-71. These vehicles have totaly different roles.

Americans have gathered information of Syrian positions and strength and had passed them to IAF.
After that IAF have used UAV’s to provoke Syrians to switch on their tracking radars.
You surely know that IAF did not dare to attack Syrian positions with manned aircraft. It was too dangerous because SAM-6 and SAM-8 radars were unjammable.
Syrian SAM’s were attacked by Zeev surface to surface radar homming missiles and with GBU-15 command link/TV guided glide bombs which were not yet entered US inventory but had been passed to IAF.

That was the information from American magazine Aviation week.

Regarding pictures, I will soon present them here.

The Americans did operate in Lebanon in the eighties, using mostly their navy with Hornets, but they didn’t help Israel in the Lebanon war. It was an Israeli operation, extended to war. The Americans didn’t support it anyway. Not that they opposed, but there was no real cooperation in intelligence and no cooperation in attacks. I show you facts, you show me speculation, even if it was made by Aviation week. The fact remains that the Israeli airforce prepared for 9 years to operation Artzav 19. Israel planned to attack already in 1981, but it was cancelled due to poor weather conditions. By that time the airforce was already occupied in plans to attack the Iraqi nuclear reactor, and the government decided not to open a second front with the Syrians.
The attack didn’t come in one day. You make it look so simple, “the americans helped you” and all the other “secret stuff”, “Zeev missiles”, that we used, but it was a long process of developing new tactics and a difficult operation. Things aren’t that easy. The Israeli F-4 squadrons, and not some kind of “secret” missile, were the ones that eliminated 19 Syrian SAM sites. They did in smartly, they did it right, they lost no airplane and achieved their goal. You can make excuses as much as you want. I don’t feel a desperate need to prove it all to you. What I do is show you facts. You can take them, or just say they are propaganda. I can’t do more than that. I can’t control your state of mind, and some people, as you know, think they can turn black to white by the power of their will.

Americans were always present in any war in Middle East.

Did you forget that in 1973 war you have been beaten by Arabs. Americans saved you by airlifts. You surrely know that too well.

Only after Americans entered the war with their pilots and Phantoms armed with Mavericks TV guided missiles, which have cut the pass in Arab SAM umbrella, did you succed to go on.

Do not tell me that you don’t know this.

Regarding ECM jamming aircraft, it is without any question that IAF operate speciallised a/c for jamming. It is version of USAF EC-135.
(Modified B-707). Every major Air Force operate spec jamming aircraft.
IAF had blocked Syrian communications by that way.

F-15 and F-16 are surrely better fighters than Mig-21 and 23 but both these Migs are better than F-4’s and Dagger’s.

As in WW2, Me-262 was better than Mustang, but nobody can claim that because of that fact, no Me-262 were downed by Mustangs. That would be ridiculous. The same logic can be applied to 1982 war.

F-16 did not have radar guideded missiles, only IC. That was serious flaw.
So, compared to it, Mig-23 had great advantage regarding to armaments. Not to mention R-60 (AA-8 ) missiles specially designed for dogfights, with 9 g target capability.
Mig-21MF also had R-60 and radar guided R-3R.

Let me remind you that, in Vietnam war, Phantoms were downed by outdated Migs-17. And difference between these two a/c was much greater than between F-15/16 and Mig-23/21.

Also, you have to know that exchange ratio of 80:0 is statisticaly impossible and it only leads to such situation that nobody believes you any more.

The Americans helped us in 1973 by airlifts, that’s correct. But it’s a long road from that to cooperation in intelligence and attacks. They gave us weapons, including A-4s and F-4s, but never participated in the war by themself. Remember that the world then was devided to Eastern and Western blocks. Active cooperation with Israel in the war would have caused the Cold war get hot, really hot, a few thousands degrees hot. I would suggest you to read some realistic history books about the Yom Kippur war, and even better, read some stuff in the internet. Try ACIG.

About the ECM 707, for today’s standards, you are most certainly right. But back in the early 80s, it was a different world with different wars. Israel did not operate any jamming 707s at that time.
In 1982, the Daggers were already fighting in the Falklands. The last Mirage IIIs were retired a short period of time before the Lebanon war. The F-4s, as well as Kfirs, did not participate in the dogfights.

I don’t know what do you think about the 82:0 kill ratio, and you are entitled to your opinion. What I did before and will do now is show the list of all Israeli F-16A/Bs ever operated by Israel. Go through each page of the list. You’ll see a very small numbers of write offs, and they were all during accidents.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_serials_airforce-IDFAF.html

Erez i am sure Israel won the air battles, but i doubt the score, i think the true score have to have been something like 82:10 or 82:15.
i am sure the MiG-23 is not a match to the F-15 neither to the F-16 in terms of agility, i am sure the MiG-25 fell victim to the F-15s, when i have read Russian accounts, the Russian admit Israel won the air war and the MiG-23 had a very limited agility compared to the F-15s or F-16s, i consider Israel won`t admit losses if the Syrians do not show wreckages because war is also fight on the media, either side used the media but in the western world Israel has more credebility than the Russian or Syrians.

I am sure that Syria and Russia will try to exagerate the number of kills made by the Syrian MIGs and reduce the number of Migs lost but i consider both sides would do the same
I think it is not so unlikely the MiG-23s have shot down some F-16s, i think there is some room for such possibility, i feel it is likely the Syrian MiG-23s indeed shot down some F-16s

I have a better idea. Search F-16.net.
They got the entire list of Israeli F-16s that ever flew.
You’ll see that out of Israel’s entire Viper fleet, a few were ever lost, and only due to a few accidents. The F-16A/Bs that faught in Lebanon are still active, wearing sometimes up to 7 kill marks from Lebanon, and are flown by Israel’s young trainee pilots.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_serials_airforce-IDFAF.html
And doesn’t it say it all?
http://www.iaf.org.il/sip_storage/files/4/19284.jpg
Basically, you can count the kill marks on the Israeli Eagles and Vipers. If you’ll see all of the planes, you will get 82 Syrian kill marks.

I have read Russian claims as i also read Israeli claims, i consider both versions as equally likely to have happened what i have not seen are pictures either of the MiG`s wreckages or of the F-15`s, F-16`s and F-4`s wreckages and confirmed kills.

I know the Syrians admitted losses but not as high as Israel claims regarding the MiG-23s, without pictorial evidence i do not give complete veracity to the accounts and claims of any of the parties involved in the Lebanese conflict.

The Israeli air force claims 82 kills. 4 Before operation Artzav 19, 29 during the operation, a day after 30, and two days after, 19.
Wreckages? I don’t think many of those will survive the crash, and whatever survived was probably “cleaned” by the Syrians and Lebanonese.
It should be mentioned though that the Syrians have an F-4 wreckages in their war museum, but it was shot down in 1973. The Israeli air force and state usually does not display wreckages of eliminated enemy equipment. That’s a desperate custom of monarchy states that try to increase the moral of their people. Our airforce know what it did. It doesn’t feel a need to show off or justify itself. Only losers do it when they come with dubious gun camera shots.
I don’t know how many of the planes shot down were Floggers, but I assume the majority were older MiG-21s, which didn’t stand much chance against the Eagle and the Viper.

I am curious how can you be so sure that no Israeli F-15 and F-16 are downed in that conflict ?

Israelis refuse any sort of investigations regarding that, so no one can say what is truth. But many british magazines and authors do not buy Israeli story.

Israel eventually admited all the loses it suffered, especially in wars. A part of what made the Israeli air force one of the best in the world is that we don’t just try to cover our a$$. We admit and learn from our mistakes. An example of that is that in 1973, we lost tons of F-4s that tried to destory SAM sites. That was a huge shock for the airforce and the nation, and in the following years new tactics were developed under the codename “Artzav”. The Israeli 201 squadron lost the greatest number of pilots and planes in 1973. In 1982, when the command for operation Artzav 19 came in, there was a smell of fear from the side of the pilots who survived 1973. Here they were again, facing the same threat that they faced only 9 years before, and with such huge losses. The new tactics, however, proved highy useful. Within hours, the Syrian air defence was destroyed, and during the war 82 Syrian planes were shut down by the F-15s and F-16s, that covered the F-4s from above. No losses in Israeli planes.
That comes to show that we weren’t just lucky and we had a very good idea of how to do this mission, and that’s why we didn’t lose planes over Lebanon in any aerial combat. There was a total air superiority over Lebanon.

In 1973 war there were cases that Israelis claimed that their planes has been downed by AAA fire but Egyptians and Syrians have presented gun camera pictures depicting those same Israeli planes in flames !!!

A relatively small number of Israeli fighter jets were lost in aerial combats even in 1973. The majority of them in the first few days, when the Arab forces were almost invading Israel. The majority of all the Israelis planes lost in that war were downed by SAM sites that guarded the Suez canal and stopped for some while the almost desperate attacks the Israeli planes were trying to make.

American magazine Aviation Week and Space Tech wrote in 1975 that at least 10 Israeli fighters has been shoot down in air combat in 1973 war. Israelis claimed only 4 lost in air combat.

AFAIK both numbers make sense, and anyway don’t make much difference. The fact is that Israeli air force planes were indeed shut down in 1973, even in aerial combats. But the real point is the lesson we made of that war, which caused the amazing kill rate in 1982.

So nobody serious believe them any more.

Regarding 1982 war, Israelis did not have U-2 but americans did. SR-71 was also involved.
Syrians did not have any AWACS or special jamming aircraft as Israelis.

I don’t know of any American presence in the Lebanon war.
Israel doesn’t have special jamming aircraft, unless of course you mean that American jamming planes participated as well.