Erez“WOW, I’m AWAY FOR TWO DAYS AND LOOK AT ALL THE CRAB ONE ISRAELI MANAGED TO SPREAD !!!.”
What do you mean by that?
Every single word written here is 100% true.
You probably didn’t noticed, but some guy posted here pictures of Yasin after his death, and we all asked him to remove them.
Yet, on the other hand, you continue posting bull$hit as your signature.
ErezWon’t you put pressure on that? I mean Rafales againts IDF/AF F-15s….You’ll lose ( limited ) technological superiority, I think…..
More and more reasons for us to get the F/A-22, I guess. But I believe that a free Lebanon wouldn’t want, from its own free will, to fight Israel.
ErezI just recalled another most idiotic military aviation movie. I can’t remember its name, but it was something involving sky racing with Eurofighters 😮
ErezI think this is the time for our great moderators to help here. Please delete all non aviation related posts.
ErezIron Eagle. Really bad story. Good footages though.
That and the rest of the eighties’ “I am an idiot kid who thinks he’s big shot and I fly F-16s in age 16” movies.
Erez* Not quite. The Arye was developed as a one project. The IAI even built a mock up of its cockpit. The Lavi project was borned out of the Arye project, not the other way around.
* Of course.
* True. But why?
As a fighter in its level, its R&D cost was quite low, even though Zakheim said exactly the opposite. Eventually, the F-16 deal cost ( or should I say “cost”) Israel more. Why? because the F-16s Zakheim said they are the best alternative were regular F-16Cs and especially Ds, while in reality, in order to make up the loss of the Lavi, we had to adjust the original F-16D to the IF-16D standard, and it cost a hell of lot more.
* Considerable, yes. Not the majority. Can you please prove that the aerodynamic surfaces were a Grumman design?
For IAI ‘hoping’ to eventually build the composite components (sorry for alliterating) itself, it depends on when your quote is placed. If it was around the time that the US was seriously considering dropping it’s financial support for the Lavi program, you are right. But this was in a pretty late stage of the whole process, and i believe actually after IAI thought of a production scheme for the Lavi. Besides, there is a world of difference in making simple composite panels like for the F-16 or F-15 as IAI is doing now, and large load-bearing composite structures like the Lavi’s wing.
It’s from 1986, a bit after Zakheim came to Israel. And a bit before the rollout, so I believe it’s July 1986.
ErezA stage the Lavi never grew out of. Everything beyond the Lavi as a trio of prototype is speculation, but anyway.
Sadly it didn’t. I would though that the Technology Demonstrator stage was almost semi operational. But still, a prototype airframe is a prototype airframe.
Also, this would have ment a licensed production of a Grumman design by an Israeli company. Nothing spectaculair really, it would in practice have ment that IAI could have become a subcontractor for an airplane which nominaly was it’s own.
Why do you insist on calling it a Grumman design?
It wasn’t a Grumman design, it was an Israeli IAI’s design manufactured under a contract the IAI did for manufacturing of the composite parts of the Lavi (because of being technically unable to it itself), and Grumman won this contract.
Take notice of the words “…the people of IAI are hoping to transfer…” meaning that there was no plan yet to transfer wing production. Also, this would have ment a licensed production of a Grumman design by an Israeli company. Nothing spectaculair really, it would in practice have ment that IAI could have become a subcontractor for an airplane which nominaly was it’s own.
They mean they were hoping to manufacture it at all, since dear Dr. Dov Zakheim came to Israel and the Lavi project was in danger.
So what? Plenty of countries do aviation sub-assemblies. China builds parts and panels for both Boeing and Airbus, the Netherlands haven’t just built F-16s under license but also made a lot of the landing gears for other F-16 production lines, etcetera.
I gave the F-15s and F-16s example to demonstrate that today we can manufacture composite parts, and that if the Lavi was produced, all of its composite parts would have been produced in Israel without any special problem. The contract with Grumman was only for five prototypes.
License-building again, nothing to be particularly proud of. This time of an Americanised version of a British design. A third-hand design this time
Sure, but still, not an American made. Foreign design, yes (and I didn’t deny the Lavi had some non Israeli made parts), but Israeli built.
The Arye was a design proposal, which you for some reason find particularly special. Do you have any idea how many design proposals and studies are made around the world? There were more countries playing around with similar designs: Yugoslavia’s Novi Avion, South Africa’s Cava to name but two. The Arye/Lavi actually reached the stage of flying prototypes, yes. But that was thanks to American money, and American aid in the design of the Lavi. Without that help, the Arye/Lavi wouldn’t have gotten any further than all the other still-born design proposals. You can ask Deino how many of those there were.
It might have ended its life like the rest of these anonymous designs, but because of being the project in which the Lavi was designed in, it didn’t. That’s why it’s special.
Again: it was a conceptual design. So what? The conceptual design of the (Y)F-16 dates from the 1960s. The YF-16s first flew in 1974, more than ten years before the Lavi. Still plenty of time to change the design of (for example) the Arye intake… especially since the Arye pic you’ve posted here a number of times doesn’t show the intake or anything.
The Arye picture I posted once (and was reposted several other times by others) was of the LWF-4, one of the conceptual designs of the Arye, but not conceptual design #33, that was the Lavi.
ErezGuys, I can’t get your PMs due to the 50 masseges limitation. Please contact me on email.
ErezWow, anybody here wants to join my new airplanes design startup? :p
BTW, any comments about my design?
ErezErez,
These are a number of the links with articles posted previously, being evidence of significant US involvement in design, research and development in the Lavi. I posted a number more in earlier threads, but since i’m on terribly slow dial-up at the moment i hope you can forgive me in not being as exhaustive as i’ve been the previous three times
So, you say about 55% of the Lavi was US made?
I say you could be right, when talking about the prototype stage.
I don’t have a list of the US made components in the Lavi, but the most obvious are the parts made of composite materials, such as wings, tale, canards and other smaller parts, that were made by Grummen. I have a question for you Arthur, and I do expect an answer. In your opinion, how much precent are these parts I mentioned above from the all aiplane?
Also, I have with me an atricle a friend scaned for me from the IDF/AF bulletin, but I don’t know its date. Its title is “The Lavi’s Rollout”, by Yakir Elkariv. Anyway, one part of the atricle states that “The Lavi’s wings are made by the “Grummen” company in the US… “in the future, the people of the IAI are hoping to transfer the production of all the composite parts of the Lavi to Ramta (*An IAI factory near Be’er-Sheva) and to make this ability to the main ability of the factory”. BTW, even though the Lavi was cancelled, today Ramta does produce parts made of composite materials for the IDF/AF’s F-16s and F-15s, and for the Raam and the Sufa. The article also states that the Martin Baker ejection seat the Lavi uses will also be produced in Israel, in IAI’s Golan Industries factory, though the Lavi will have its first flight with the American made version of this ejection seat.
All in all, we can say that a large part of the Lavi was US made, and some of it was even US designed, but certainly not 60%.
A few years later we suddenly see a modern fighter plane made by a country with absolutely no expertise in fighter jets designs from scratch, and, OMFG, he is similar to the F-16 (and called Lavi). Is it a coincidence?
Too many people are missing the Arye stage in the development of the IAI. Most of the people think we “jumped” from the Kfir to the Lavi, but very few know that the Arye existed, and was an important stage too. So important, that its conceptual design number 33 was the Lavi itself. Again, we are talking about the mid 70s here. Israel didn’t have the F-16 yet. Actually, the F-16 was more known as the YF-16 at the time.
Erezso, do you want to try again, or do you just want to go play in your little corner convinced that everyone else is being stubben and inflexable, and unable to face the possibility that they might be wrong?
Face me with questions. As GD said, I did stated my opinion already. I have given a source, and I have some more. They are in Hebrew though, and I won’t be able to write all of them down. I’ve written my main point:
Israel played an important role in the J-10 project, and has given knowledge, especially knowledge regarding the Lavi, the only fighter plane Israel designed, and the most modern fighter jet we made. That’s in one sentence.
You want me to prove it?
I gave you a prove that there was/maybe still is a cooperation in military aviation and military airplanes production technologies between Israel and China. David Ivri is a trustable man. And I don’t think he meant for paper planes. A few years later we suddenly see a modern fighter plane made by a country with nearly no expertise in fighter jets designs from scratch, and, OMFG, he is similar to the Lavi. Is it a coincidence?
IMHO, no. You may think otherwise of course.
Quite simple isn’t it?
ErezWell, this is mine. His name is (for now) “Sa’ar”. It’s not 5th generation and it’s not stealth. Just a nice little 4th generation fighter/trainer. I too was influenced a bit by the F-16.
ErezOh pleazzzze Erez! A number of times we’ve given you links which in detail described the massive US involvement in the whole Lavi design, development and eventual production, but you refuse to believe those for some reason.
Arthur, I’d like to have a “second” view of these links, please. Also, I’ve never denied the Amercian involvement in the Lavi project. They financed, they gave technical support, sure. But from that to saying the Lavi was practically an Amercian plane, there’s a long way to go.
And the Haaretz’s article is from 04/01/95. I don’t know why I wrote 03/04/95 before, it’s a mistake.
And I really hate to sound pathetic, but what can I do other than leave this thread if I don’t even enjoy writing in this thread?
ErezNo, it would be impossible.
However, I did another single engined light weight fighter, but I’m not so sure it’s 5th generation.
ErezNice design! 😮
I made one of my own, the Arye II, but he’s more like an F-22 class, two engined 5th generation fighter.
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