ianwoodward9As far as I can establish, AM259 made 8 return flights to Moscow in late 1942 and the first part of 1943. These all appear to have been direct flights using the northern route, though there may have been occasional stopovers en route. These flights were as follows:-
1942-10-21/22 = Prestwick > Moscow [1st flight to Moscow]
1942-10-28/29 = Moscow > Prestwick
1942-11-22/23 = Prestwick > Moscow [2nd Moscow service]
1942-11-27/28 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-01-04/05 = Prestwick > Moscow [3rd Moscow service]
1943-01-10/11 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-01-24/25 = Prestwick > Moscow [4th Moscow service]
1943-01-27/28 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-02-17/18 = Prestwick > Moscow [5th Moscow service]
1943-02-21/22 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-03-03/04 = Prestwick >.Moscow [6th Moscow service]
1943-03-07/08 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-03-18/19 = Prestwick > Moscow [7th Moscow service]
1943-03-22/23 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-04-04/05 = Prestwick > Moscow [8th Moscow service]
1943-04-07/08 = Moscow > Prestwick
I’ve tried to present the above with the same layout as the previous listings,
Any comments, criticisms and/or corrections are always welcome. As I said before, I am involved in some other matters at present but i will try to catch any further postings.
ianwoodward9Robert,
That sounds like a wonderful resource. Couldn’t really be bettered in this context, as you say. Such a pity that so many months are missing.
Ian
ianwoodward9Robert,
Thanks once again. I’ll have to be quick.
It’s good to know that other contemporary documents exist.
Does the Gander Watch List just give details of ‘occupants’ (names of crew and passengers presumably) or does it also include details of the aircraft that made the flights on which the ‘occupants’ travelled?
Ian
ianwoodward9Thank you, Robert, for the additional information, which is very welcome. I have a number of other [non-aviation] matters to which I have to attend over the coming weeks and days, so my updating will not be done straightaway, I’m afraid. I have had a few other thoughts about getting additional information but that, too, will have to wait a while. Nevertheless, i will try to keep an eye on this thread as much as I can.
As I said before, this is not at all my specialist subject but it seems to me that, if it is possible to build up a picture of the working life of one of the Liberators involved in the RFS, then it ought to be possible to construct a picture of the working lives of the others. There seems to be a fair amount of information out there but spread across different locations. It is just a question of bringing these various strands together.
For example, I have referred to the Nils Mathisrud book on ‘The Stockholm Run’. One of his sources of information was the Bromma logs, giving details of aircraft movements at that airport in WWII. As I recall, these were held in Sweden’s national archive. Does anyone know if similar information about movements at Dorval, Gander and elsewhere in Canada is held in the their national archive – if so, in Ottawa, I guess.
I am not a member of Air Britain (I was a member several decades back). Assuming Air Britain does have Peter Berry’s research, does anyone know where it is kept, who would have access to it and what the arrangements to view it might be?
ianwoodward9Just to follow up a question that arose in earlier postings, Nils Mathisrud’s book “The Stockholm Run” shows no BOAC Liberator I as having been involved on that service.
He does list three Liberator IIIs, however, namely G-AGFO [7 trips in February and March 1944], G-AGFR [2 trips in October 1943] and G-AGFS [1 trip in October 1943], the last-named being the first BOAC Liberator to land at Bromma. He notes that their lower surfaces were painted black, at BOAC’s request, to ‘match’ the undersurfaces of the Dakotas and Mosquitos used on the Stockholm Run in that period. He adds that this colour scheme was used by the Liberators on the Cairo service, too.
Just over 6 months before BOAC’s Liberator, the first American Air Transport Service Liberator landed at Bromma. It was devoid of any identification markings but used the [fictitious] call sign G-AFYO, which markings were hastily applied at Bromma, in large black letters along the fuselage, but without any outlining. It retained these throughout that first visit to Sweden but, when it flew back to Leuchars, they were overpainted and the American registration {NC 38942] applied to the tail fins. it made a further 26 trips to Stockholm.
ianwoodward9The following is an update on a previous posting. None is based on my own research; I have just taken what has been posted by others, incorporated some previously-published information, made a few deductions and raised some questions. The more speculative and questioning parts are in italics.
This is not a definitive listing and should not be taken as such.
Comments, corrections and similar will be most welcome. I shall not be offended if you find typos and/or schoolboy ‘howlers’. This is not my specialist subject.
ADDITION – I’ve had a bit of difficulty with layout but I think this will be right.
AM259 / G-AGCD
c/n 2 = ex 40-697
1941
1941-02-00 = used for handling and performance parameter trials at San Diego
1941-02-15 = San Diego > La Guardia
1941-02-23 = La Guardia > St Hubert, where TOC the same day
1941-03-05 = St Hubert > Gander
1941-03-05/13 = held at Gander by bad weather
1941-03-13 = dep Gander
1941-03-14 = arr Squires Gate [first Liberator to reach UK, crewed by Wg Cdr Waghorn and Flt Lt Summers]
1941-03-?? = allocated to MoEW
1941-03-26 = DGRD Hatfield
1941-04-01 = DGRD Heston
1941-04-08 = DGRD Handley Page
1941-04-19 = reg’d G-AGCD to BOAC (CoR 9312)
1941-04-?? = to Northolt for civil conversion
1941-04-28 = conversion completed
1941-05-04/05 = A&AEE handling trials at Boscombe Down by Capt J H Orrell
1941-05-06/13 = dispersed to Colerne/Charmy Down
1941-05-15 = CoA (6884) issued
1941-05/06-00 = MoEW use abandoned due to airfield limitations in Sweden
1941-07-10/11 = A Liberator left for New York via Montreal [individual aircraft not specified]
1941-10-07/08 = Prestwick > Gander
1941-10-?? = did it fly on to Montreal? And when did it return to Prestwick?
1942
1942-04-18 = Prestwick > Gander
1942-04-?? = Gander > Montreal
1942-04-24 = Montreal > Prestwick
1942-04-25 = Prestwick > Gander
1942-04-?? = did it fly to Montreal and back to Gander?
1942-05-01 = Gander > Prestwick
1942-05-02/03 = Prestwick > Gander
1942-05-?? = did it fly on to Montreal and when did it return to Prestwick?
1942-05-10/11 = Prestwick > Montreal
1942-05-?? = Montreal > Gander
1942-05-16 = Gander > Prestwick
1942-05-18/19 = Prestwick > Gander
1942-05-?? = did it fly on to Montreal and when did it return to the UK?
1942-05-23/24 = Gander > Prestwick
1942-05-25 = Prestwick > Gander
1942-05/06-?? = did it fly on to Montreal and back
1942-06-04/05 = Gander > Prestwick
1942-06-08/09 = Prestwick > Montreal
1942-06-?? = Montreal > Gander
1942-06-13/14 = Gander > Prestwick
1942-06-?? = Prestwick > Gander and/or Montreal
1942-06-22/23 = Gander > Prestwick
1942-06-?? = Prestwick > Gander and/or Montreal
1942-06-29/30 = Gander > Prestwick
1942-07-01/02 = Prestwick > Gander
1942-07-03 = did it fly on to Montreal and back to Gander?
1942-07-04/05 = Gander > Prestwick
1942-07-06/07 = Prestwick > Gander
1942-07-?? = did it fly on to Montreal and back to Gander?
? 1942-07-14 = made special UK > Cairo flight, then ret’d to RFS
? 1942-07-14 = Gander > Prestwick
? 1942-07-24 = second flight to Cairo
1942-08-21 = Prestwick > Gander
1942-08-?? = did it fly on to Montreal and back to Gander?
1942-08-24 = reg’n cancelled
1942-08-25/26 = Gander > Prestwick
1942-??-?? = when did it fly to Montreal [possibly via Gander]?
1942-09-19/20 = Montreal > Prestwick
1942-10-21/22 = Prestwick > Moscow [1st flight there; 13:09 flying hours]
1942-10-29 = Moscow > Prestwick
1942-11-22/23 = Prestwick > Moscow [2nd flight to Moscow]
1942-11-27/28 = Moscow > Prestwick
1942-12-05 = Prestwick > Gander
1942-12-?? = did it fly on to Montreal and back to Gander?
1942-12-18 = Gander > Prestwick
1943
1943-01-04/05 = Prestwick > Moscow [presumed from the Peter Moss article]
1943-01-10/11 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-01-12/13 = Prestwick > Moscow [date presumed from the following report]
1943-01-14 = slightly damaged taking off at Moscow [did it return to Prestwick anyway? Or at a later date?]
1943-01-24/25 = Prestwick > Moscow [4th Moscow service]
1943-01-27/28 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-02-17/18 = Prestwick > Moscow [5th Moscow service]
1943-02-21/22 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-03-?? = Prestwick >.Moscow? [presumed from the Peter Moss article]
1943-03-04 = Moscow > Prestwick? [presumed from the Peter Moss article]
1943-04-07 = reverted to AM259
1943-05-15 = damaged at Prestwick
1943-06-10 = regular service to Moscow started with G-AGHG [Peter Moss article] but see Jan ’44 below
1943-06-23 = ret’d to BOAC 23.6.43 [reg’n restored on unknown date]
————— = again used on Russian and special services as G-AGCD
1944
1944-01-03/11 = made special UK > Cairo return flight
1944-01-29/30 = Prestwick > Moscow [northern route]
1944-02-09 = Moscow > Cairo [southern route because of weather]
1944-02-10 = Cairo > Gibraltar [as above]
1944-02-10/11 = Gibraltar > Lyneham ?[as above]
1944-07-06 = ret’d to RAF as AM259 for 45 Gp Comm Sqn
1944-09-08 = 231 Sqn
1944-12-18 = Prestwick > Lagens
1945
1945-11-07 = SOC at Dorval
ianwoodward9Thanks for double-checking, Robert.
It is a puzzle.
ianwoodward9A couple more notes regarding the service record of AM259 / G-AGCD, this time about its flights to Moscow.
The HMSO publication “Merchant Airmen” [1946] devotes a [brief] chapter to flights to and from Moscow. It describes the ‘survey flight’: ‘The Liberator took off from Prestwick on the evening of October 21st 1942 with a crew of four, eight passengers … freight and mail”. The flight took just over 13 hours and arrived in Moscow on 22 October., returning on 29 October. Curiously,, the Air Ministry ‘ledgers’ examined by Tony Doyle give 20/21 October for the outbound flight and 28 October for the return but I’ll stick with the dates given elsewhere.
In terms of the work history of AM259 /G-AGCD, ‘Merchant Airmen’ says that, “Throughout that winter the direct northabout route was flown nine times by the same aircraft”. If the ‘survey’ flight was the first of these, then another eight flights, ‘service’ flights, need to be accounted for. Peter Moss [in a 1975 article] wrote that there were six flights to Moscow from the 4th January 1943 to 4 March 1943. which would indicate that there were two service flights to and from Moscow in the latter part of 1942.
From the sources available to me, I think I can identify one of the two ‘service’ flights in late-1942 and five of the six ‘service’ flights in early 1943. In some cases, this required a few assumptions.
There are, however, different accounts of the 1942-1943 ‘northern route’ flights from Prestwick to Moscow. Another source says that, after the first flight, there was only one other in 1942 and that, ‘altogether eight round trips [were] completed successfully”.and yet another source reports that, “in all, nine flights, all with the same sircraft, were made north to …. Moscow”.
ianwoodward9I am in the process of trying to integrate the various bits of information about the service record of AM259 / G-AGCD, using the information posted by Matt and robstitt and the books and articles to which i have access.
One anomaly I’ve noted so far relates to 14 July 1942. The NA records, posted by robstitt, say that it flew from Gander to Prestwick that day. Matt’s posting, which i think comes from the Oughton book, says it made its first flight to Cairo on 14 July 1942 – adding that it then returned to the RFS.
The latter addition leads a to a further anomaly. Peter Moss, in a 1975 article, agrees that its first flight to Cairo took place on 14 July 1942 but says it made its second flight to Cairo on 24 July 1942. This raises the question of when it returned to the RFS. Since the NA records give no further RFS flights by AM259 / G-AGCD until the following month [on 21 August 1942] , this might suggest that it stayed in Lyneham for a few weeks after its first Cairo flight, rather than returning straightaway to Prestwick to continue its RFS duties.
As ever, brickbats welcome.
ianwoodward9This is the report I meant to post last time, this from July 1941:
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1941/1941%20-%201600.html
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1941/1941%20-%201601.html
ianwoodward9For anyone who hasn’t read a first-hand, contemporary account of transatlantic air travel by Liberator in 1941 :-:
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarch…0-%202889.html
ianwoodward9Robert,
Thanks for the offer. Personally,, I would really love to see the information on AM259 for 1943 and 1944. I think it would be most interesting to build up a fuller picture of its work record.
If the transcription process is time-consuming, there’s no need to rush at it, though.. Most of us have other priorities at this time of year
I will comment on the 1942 information in the near future.
Ian
ianwoodward9Perhaps it would be possible to work out when those six aircraft in the ‘Lib line-up’ photo were operating the NARFS at the same time and even when they might have been in Canada around the same time.
The reference to considering AM259 for the Stockholm Run as early as mid-1941 is interesting. One of the books on the Stockholm Run says “six pre-production YB-24 aircraft .. had been ordered for ferry services” and that, on 26 November 1940, “the War Cabinet decided that one of these should be allocated to the Stockholm run”. While there was political pressure to do at least one Stockholm trip before the end of the year, clearly no Lib would be available. When the Liberators did arrive, there was disagreement between the Air Ministry and the Ministry of Aircraft Production as to who would get the allocated aircraft.
At a meeting on 16 May 1941, both agreed each to give up a Hudson for the Liberator [i.e. two Hudsons for one Liberator] but which would get the Liberator? Meanwhile, BOAC didn’t want to use the Liberator on the Stockholm run at all and put all manner of objections to delay things. At a meeting on 29 May 41 in the Air Ministry, it was decided to allocate the Hudson V [the MAP Hudson – AM707 was selected from RAF deliveries] to the route and that the Hudson III [the Air Ministry’s Hudson] would not be released but that Super Elektra G-AGBG would continue to operate. This was all around the time that, according to the above chronology, the MoEW had decided that “airfield limitations” precluded the use of the Liberator, though the matter did apparently drag on a bit longer.
Hudson AM707 was assembled at Speke, flown to Bramcote and became G-AGCE. On 6 June 1941, it went to the A&AEE at Boscombe, on 7 June to Whitchurch to have a D/F loop fitted and on 8 June to Leuchars. It left for Stockholm the same day but had to turn back for technical reasons. Various modifications were attempted to improve its performance at altitude but, on 20 June, BOAC requested a Hudson III. The Hudson III [G-AGDC] made its first flight to Stockholm om 18 July 1941. Meanwhile, SOE, anxious about the delay and the growing backlog of personnel to bring to Britain, requested that the allocated Liberator be put on the service; instead, a second Hudson III was allocated. This was G-AGDF, which joined BOAC in late September and first flew to Stockholm on 18 October 1941. The Norwegian-owned Lodestars had started on the route in August, helping to ease the congestion..
I have found no other reference to the possible use of Liberators on the Stockholm service in this time period,
ianwoodward9I would like to make a few observations on the ‘life’ of AM259 / G-AGCD as presented in the above chronology:
[1] AM259/G-AGCD had a ‘lifespan’ of 4 years and 9 months but over half the above entries relate to its first 5 months only – and thus not much to its subsequent ‘work record’.
[2] The chronology suggests it carried the G-AGCD markings in two periods – which [roughly] were:
[2A] April 1941 to April 1943
[2B] June/July 1943 to July 1944
[3] Peter Moss wrote that, in September 1942, four Libs [including G-AGCD] were directed to revert to service markings and it isn’t clear how that fits the chronology
[4] AM259 was the first Liberator to come across the ‘pond’ but AM258’s arrival at Squires Gate on 4 May 1941 marked the first RFS flight, consistent with Adrian’s posting # 226. AM258’s flight was described as “the first eastbound service” by A.J. Jackson [The flight time was 14.5 hours and the a/c carried 4 passengers and 200 lbs. of mail].
[5] A.J. Jackson also said the first six Liberators [AM258-263] “were delivered to Dorval, Montreal, in March 1941, and modified in readiness for experimental crossings”. According to the above chronology, however, AM259 never went to Dorval at all in that period, let alone being “modified” there.
[6] Adrian said that, anyway, modifications were carried out at Squires Gate, not Dorval, but perhaps these were just mods to suit British use in general, as the chronology says that the “civil conversion” took place at Northolt.
[7] I’m sure someone will confirm but didn’t BOAC operate the NARFS on behalf of No. 45 Group?
[8] 231 Squadron grew out of “45 Gp Comm Sq” and its aircraft were based at Dorval, so I guess AM259 more or less continued doing what it had been doing previously.
[9] In September 1945, 231 Squadron moved to Bermuda and was then disbanded in January 1946. Whether AM259 actually made the move to Bermuda or stayed in Dorval isn’t clear.
As ever, comments and brickbats welcome
ianwoodward9I just recalled that, some time ago, Matt kindly sent me a lot of details about individual Liberators. I have taken the information about AM259 / G-AGCD, changed the layout to present it vertically and made a couple of fairly minor typographical changes. Other than that, what you see below is how it came to me:
AM259 / G-AGCD
c/n 2 = ex 40-697;
1941-02-00 = used for handling and performance parameter trials at San Diego
1941-02-15 = San Diego > La Guardia
1941-02-23 = La Guardia > St Hubert, where TOC the same day
1941-03-05 = St Hubert > Gander
1941-03-05/13 = held at Gander by bad weather
1941-03-13 = dep Gander
1941-03-14 = arr Squires Gate [first Liberator to reach UK, crewed by Wg Cdr Waghorn and Flt Lt Summers]
————— = allocated to MoEW
1941-03-26 = DGRD Hatfield
1941-04-01 = DGRD Heston
1941-04-08 = DGRD Handley Page
1941-04-19 = reg’d G-AGCD to BOAC (CoR 9312)
————— = to Northolt for civil conversion
1941-04-28 = conversion completed
1941-05-04/05 = A&AEE handling trials at Boscombe Down by Capt J H Orrell
1941-05-06/13 = dispersed to Colerne/Charmy Down
1941-05-15 = CoA (6884) issued
————— = MoEW use abandoned due to airfield limitations in Sweden
1941-07-01 = to BOAC for use on Return Ferry Service
1942-07-14 = made special UK > Cairo flight 14.7.42, then ret’d to RFS
1942-08-24 = reg’n cancelled
1942-10-21/29 = made first Prestwick > Moscow return flight
————— = other Moscow flights to 7.4.43
1943-04-07 = reverted to AM259
1943-05-15 = damaged at Prestwick
1943-06-23 = ret’d to BOAC 23.6.43 [reg’n restored on unknown date]
————— = again used on Russian and special services as G-AGCD
1944-01-03/11 = made special UK > Cairo return flight
1944-07-06 = ret’d to RAF as AM259 for 45 Gp Comm Sqn
1944-09-08 = 231 Sqn
1945-11-07 = SOC at Dorval
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