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ianwoodward9

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  • in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #830649
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Many thanks, Adrian, for such a speedy and full response. It is appreciated but it will take me a while to absorb it all. I will come back in due course but, meanwhile, a couple of brief comments.

    When writing my previous post, it had struck me that, while G-AGDR started the Cairo service but was shot down on the return flight, it was unlikely that G_AGCD would be ‘idle’ for several months and therefore that therefore it may not have been seconded to the Cairo service at the very outset.

    Thanks for reminding me about the Goat Fell crash, by the way.

    The impression I gain is that most of the BOAC Liberators on the ATFERO or RFS services retained their military serial numbers and markings but particular aircraft were given civil registrations and markings when they were to be used on services involving neutral countries, where there was no active fighting. And, the chopping and changing between military and civilian guises [and back again] could be more frequent than I had previously imagined. Have I picked this up correctly?

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #830680
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Many of you have more knowledge of the history of individual Liberators than I do but let me toss into this pot what I do have. My principal sources are A.J. Jackson, writing in 1959, and Peter Moss, writing in 1975, but they differ on some of the specific detail. The fruits of later research may therefore support or correct the following.

    I apologise in advance for the length of this posting.

    A.J. Jackson wrote that the first batch of Liberator I aircraft for the RAF [AM258 – AM263] was delivered in March 1941 to Dorval, where they were modified for the transatlantic work. The first of these [AM258] was registered as G-AGCD on 19 April 1941 but made the first east-bound crossing, still as AM258, on 4 May 1941, arriving at Squires Gate. Its Certificate of Airworthiness was issued on 15 May 1941, so presumably the G-AGCD markings would have been applied at or soon after this date [but see below].

    Jackson also said that AM259, AM262 and AM263 were part of BOAC’s complement of Liberators in the middle of 1942 but makes no specific reference to the other two aircraft in that initial batch [namely, AM260 and AM261]

    Jackson also wrote that the second batch of RAF Liberators was made up of AM918 – AM929, of which only one [AM918] was allocated a civilian registration in wartime [G-AGDR]. He noted that AM918 and AM920 were on BOAC’s books in mid-1942 but this is obviously inaccurate, as AM918/G-AGDR was shot down in February 1942.

    Jackson gives AM918/G-AGDR as c/n 9. It was registered as G-AGDR on 3 January 1942 [the c/n being shown as F.677, incidentally] and its Certificate of Airworthiness was issued on 5 January 1942. Peter Moss said that it flew the first non-stop flight from Hurn to Cairo on 25/26 January 1942 [Jackson said ‘at the end of January’, specified Almaza as the destination and gave the duration of the flight as 11¼ hours]. Both say that it was downed on its return flight on 15 February 1942. This means that the opportunity to photograph it in its G-AGDR guise could well have been limited to the period from 5 January 1942 to 25 January 1942. Do the BOAC records give any indication as to its movements in that period? Would it have made a stopping flight to Egypt before the inaugural non-stop flight, for example?

    Both authors wrote that G-AGCD then continued the service alone, Moss saying that it flew the second outbound service from Lyneham to Egypt on 14 July 1942 and that “24 more flights in each direction were completed without mishap until the service was suspended on December 10”.

    The two are in broad agreement about the starting arrangements for the Cairo service. Jackson wrote that G-AGCD and G-AGDR “were detached from the Atlantic route and used their civil markings … for direct flights non-stop to Egypt”. Moss wrote that ”in January 1942, two [Liberators] were taken off the NARFS and painted up as G-AGCD and G-AGDR, while a third was held in reserve as G-AGDS”. I’ll come on to G-AGDS in a moment.

    Let me first consider G-AGCD .

    The Moss version suggests that, despite being registered as G-AGCD back in May 1941, it did not actually take on this guise until January 1942. What do BOAC’s records show? Did it actually stay as AM259 from May to December 1941? Was it used as AM259 or as G-AGCD on the NARFS in 1941? And, if longshot is right about that group photo including G-AGCD, how does that fit into the chronology?

    The dates given by Peter Moss suggest that G-AGCD was part of the Cairo service from January 1942 but didn’t actually fly the route until July 1942? Did it not fly at all in that six month period? Or, having been painted up as G-AGCD in January 1942 [and perhaps awaiting some kind of clearance to re-commence the Cairo service following the downing of G-AGDR], did it go back to the NARFS and fly transatlantic as G-AGCD for this period? And does that help in any way to date or locate the group photo of the line of Libs?

    Moving now to G-AGDS [the ‘reserve’ Cairo route aircraft], this was the former AM263, the sixth of the initial batch of Liberators mentioned by Jackson. It was registered as G-AGDS on 26 January 1942, which is consistent with the Moss dating for the Cairo service being about to start. However, Jackson says it was not given a Certificate of Airworthiness and returned to the RAF in August 1944. Its registration document, on the other hand, says it was taken off the civil register “19.8.42 (Reduce to Produce)?”. However, Moss says that “An order dated September 1942 directed that four civil Liberators … should revert to Service markings” and says that the four included G-AGCD and G-AGDS. So, there seems to be doubt as to the longevity and fate of G-AGDS. And why, if it was the ‘reserve’ for the service to Egypt, did it apparently never get to replace G-AGDR and to supplement G-AGCD on the route?

    And there are questions about G-AGCD, too. If ordered back to ‘Service markings’ in September 1942, how come it single-handedly operated the Cairo service, presumably as G-AGCD not AM259, from July to December 1942? When did it actually return to its military markings?

    Moss reported that “the UK to Cairo service was reopened on 27 February 1943 by BOAC Liberators” but without specifying which particular aircraft were used.

    Once again, I apologise for the length of the above and give my thanks for getting this far. I hope I haven’t made any howlers along the way.

    in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #831552
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    I have not been able to contribute here for quite a while but appreciate the postings that have been made in the last couple of weeks. Thanks.

    in reply to: A question about Channel Airways #784027
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    And this is the Bristol 170 G-AIFO at Southend in the summer of 1963. There is a similar bold green stripe at window-level along the fuselage but it wraps round the nose and the registration is now within the width of the fuselage stripe. The airline name is smaller, the high wing making it impossible to paint it as on the low wing aircraft, and there is the large yellow and green ‘flash’ is on the tail

    in reply to: A question about Channel Airways #784036
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    I did a bit of “internet trawling” a while back and one of the things I found was this postcard. It shows Viking G-AHPH, which was only in Channel Airways service from Spring 1958 to Summer 1959. It came from Eagle Airways and the stripe along the fuselage, presumably bottle green, is quite wide and at window-level. There is also a Union Flag on the fin, which does not appear to have been that common with Channel’s aircraft.

    Was this livery used for just a brief period?

    in reply to: A question about Channel Airways #784773
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Thanks, once again, rochford. I do understand that G-INFO gives the dates of British registration, not necessarily the dates when the aircraft were obtained, but presumed that the G-INFO dates were some indication as to when EAFS/Channel Airways started to use them in service.

    Was G-AGRU leased by Kuwait Oil or was British International Airlines a shell company they owned (no pun intended)?

    in reply to: A question about Channel Airways #784791
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Thank you, rochford, for the information. Sorry for the ‘topic drift’ but I found that interesting, too.

    Is it possible to say the dates (which year even) when these various livery changes took place?

    An Ian Allan publication (undated but apparently published in August 1959), says that the Channel Airways fleet, as at 1 June 1959, consisted of:

    >> Bristol 170 Mk.21: G-AICT and G-AIFO
    >> DH89 Dragon Rapide: G-AEMH and G-AKRN
    >> DH104 Dove: G-ANVU, G-AOBZ, G-AOZW and G-APAG
    >> Vickers Viking: G-AGRU, G-AHOZ and G-AHPH

    According to G-INFO, the first two Doves listed, G-ANVU and G-AOBZ, were acquired by EAFS in November 1954 and May 1955, being officially transferred to Channel Airways in November 1962, while G-AOZW and G-APAG were acquired in March 1957 and August 1957 respectively but were never officially transferred to Channel Airways ownership.

    May I ask which pair of Doves bore the light green cheat line?

    In 1957, roughly around the same time as the second pair of Doves was obtained, the two Bristol Freighters/Wayfarers were acquired, G-AIFO in April and G-AICT in September. Both were officially transferred to Channel Airways ownership in 1962.

    Of the two Bristol 170s, were both Wayfarers rather than Freighters and could you please advise which one bore the green stripe and the Channel Airways name?

    Of the three Vikings listed above, G-AHOZ and G-AHPH were bought from Eagle (in May and April 1958 respectively). I assume these were the two with bottle green cheat lines.

    G-AGRU was bought a little later, February 1959, from British International Airlines, a name that means nothing to me. Its address was Airways House on the Great West Road in Brentford, a name that I do seem to recall, however. Can anyone help me with British International Airlines Limited?

    in reply to: A question about Channel Airways #784929
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    A “loo with a view”, no less.

    Incidentally, AEROPLANE SPOTTER for 5 April 1947 had a photo of a King’s Flight Viking on its cover, too. It is also VL246 but it’s a different photo from that on AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION JOURNAL. VL246 was apparently the Viking used by the King. It goes on to say that VL247 was used by The Queen, VL245 by ‘passengers of State accompanying the Royal Party“, and VL248 was “fitted as a mobile maintenance workshop for servicing the passenger carriers“.

    AEROPLANE SPOTTER adds that, since the cover photograph was taken, “the Royal Crown crest has been painted on each side of the fuselage, just below the pilot’s cockpit“.

    in reply to: A question about Channel Airways #784953
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Thanks for the information, Moggy. I am not up-to-date with recent research or relevant publications but the March 1947 issue of THE INTER-SERVICES AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION JOURNAL has an article entitled “Return of the Vikings”.

    It says, “The King’s Flight is equipped with four Vikings C.Mk.II” and has a photograph of VL245 (bare metal, with just roundels and fin flash) The serial number is very large on the rear fuselage and is painted as “VL-245”, rather in the style of civilian registration marks of that era. The editorial in the same issue says the Vikings in the King’s Flight are similar to the Viking 1B airliners, differing in internal furnishings and external markings. It then mentions the large serial numbers, as if these were the norm. However …..

    … the next month’s issue of AIRCRAFT RECOGNITION JOURNAL had a photograph of another Viking on the cover. The caption says, “H.M. The King’s Viking” but the serial number, VL246, is quite small and further back along the fuselage, just in front of the tailplane. I can find no reference to this change of style in the text.

    Looking up Channel Airways’ Vikings from the late-1950s, I have found four so far (G-AGRU, G-AHOZ, G-AHPH and G-AJJN) and none seem to have been bought from BWAA, though one was formerly with BWIA. Of the two Bristol 170s (G-AICT and G-AIFO), one was from BWAA. As these are the two aircraft types of direct interest to me initial question, I haven’t looked for information on their D.H. Doves.

    in reply to: A question about Channel Airways #785121
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    Thanks for the replies.

    I wasn’t aware that the Norwich Aviation Museum has a Channel Airways display, so that’s useful to know. Though it’s not exactly on my doorstep and it’s many years since I’ve been in Norfolk, perhaps I’ll get the chance to visit it some time.

    I had seen the SAAD webpages before but it was some time ago and I certainly hadn’t picked up that the ‘cheat’ line came from the purchase of aircraft from BWAA. I got the ‘1961’ date from another website, though I had doubts about its accuracy – as I recall, it said that Channel Airways’ Vikings had previously been in the King’s Flight, though I have no idea if that is correct.

    Our outbound journey from Southend was in a Viking. As it was my first flight, I can recall being taken into the cockpit. In Jersey, we first stayed in a hotel and went to the Battle of the Flowers, which was on the last Thursday of July in those days, I believe. The second week was spent in a holiday camp, which I recall being in the north of the island. There was a problem getting a taxi to the airport and we missed our flight back but were put on the next flight to Southend, which was in a Bristol Wayfarer. I had always assumed that this was simply because we had missed our flight but there is another possibility. Channel Airways’ Viking G-AHPH crashed on 28 July 1959. If the holiday was in 1959, we would have gone to Jersey on Saturday, 25 July 1959 and returned on Saturday, 8 August 1959. The change in aircraft type could have been a consequence of that crash. Just a thought.

    Thanks again. Any other help would be much appreciated.

    in reply to: BOAC and QANTAS, Horseshoe Route WWII #794006
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    That was so interesting to see. Thanks, longshot and, as you say, thanks to those who found the film in the first place. In the air, flying boats were among the larger aircraft at the time; on the sea, viewed from a ship, they seem so much smaller.

    in reply to: London Airport in the 1950s #801326
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    I have a number of books about, or incorporating information about, stone circles. None of them include any stone circles in S.E. England. There is evidence of circles, or henges, in S.E. England but not stone circles.

    I found the link provided by longshot very interesting (the person referring to Debenham’s in Chertsey must surely be thinking of Staines).

    There was evidence of an ancient site now under the north runway. It was (erroneously) called Caesar’s Camp or Roman Camp at one time and also something like Shapsbury Hill. It was an earthwork enclosure just north of General Roy’s baseline, not far from the Heathrow end of it. That was subsumed when London Airport opened.

    in reply to: RAF Centenary Flypast #802702
    ianwoodward9
    Participant
    in reply to: One Berlin Airlift reminisence #803823
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    I do not have the “Operation Pelican” book but believe that the RAAF provided 10 crews who remained on the airlift for something like 14 months. If that is indeed correct, the RAAF would have had a similar number to the SAAF at any one point in time.

    The RAAF also had airmen assigned to 24 Squadron (2 crews, I think) who participated from the early stages but then resumed duties in the U.K..

    I also understand that RCAF airmen were assigned to 24 Squadron and participated, though the Canadian government turned down requests to participate in the way that the governments of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa responded.

    The above were all part of the RAF contribution, of course, but the ‘Civil Lift’, which involved around 100 aircraft over the whole period, was not. Some of those civilian aircraft participated for very short periods and some for quite extended periods. One academic has calculated that there was an average of 42 civil aircraft involved each month for the duration. Again, I do not know the basis of that calculation but if it is correct, and if one assumes a crew of two or three per aircraft, then the number of civilian airmen involved exceeded the contribution of any of the three Commonwealth countries.

    [As I’ve indicated before, I’d be happy to consider counter-assertions]

    in reply to: One Berlin Airlift reminisence #803826
    ianwoodward9
    Participant

    I, too, have the Miller book. As to when it was published or who by, I did later find it listed in an academic paper as: “Washington DC, U.S. Government, 1998”. I do not know the source of, nor the basis for, that attribution.

Viewing 15 posts - 181 through 195 (of 806 total)