pjhydroYou see part of me wonders if we should try to steal a lead and forget “conventional” forces and go for something a little more “out there” and start funding a space programme and build a hypersonic sub-orbital bomber….
….sorry i’ll put my old collecton of Eagle comics down now…:D
pjhydroGuys,
the reduction from 4 to 3 british SSBN take NUMEROUS advantages if (& when) technological developments allow it! (and have optimized the design)
– If the next generation of nuclear reactor allows a life of 30/35 years without refueling (same as us SSN virginia or CVN 78 design)
– If other equipment is modular, or easely “improved/changeable”
then, may have from 4 to 3 submarine !
– One on patrol
– One in harbor, nearly ready to begin seas patrols
– One in dock, for maintenance routine & reparationA fourth ships were a BIG mistake
– One in sea patrol
– One ready to depart for patrol
– One in harbor, for light maintenance
– One in dock, for heavy maintenace(Dramaticaly expensive solution to take a fourth ships and ensure a doubtfully deterrance patrol)
I preferred to have 3 ultra-modern SSBN to provide a nearly continue deterrent to have 4 ships and be sure of nearly anything (Without doubt, by 2020/2030, the cost of 4 SSBN is A S T R O N O M I C A L for royal navy and extremely huge)!
The original Polaris plan was to have 5 subs, 4 was a compromise. 3 is too few, if one has to come off patrol suddenly (say if it hit an allies SSBN…) one was in drydock and the other only partially ready you will have a gap in deterence coverage, in other words no deterent…. 3 is the normal conventional minimum but 4 is the minimum in the case of providing a 24/365nuclear deterent.
pjhydroIt runs out of space.
Cheers
Unless you pack lead…he says fasiciously.
pjhydroWow this has drifted off topic…. to join in, there was a proposal for a Belfast fuselage to be married to a Starlifter wing/engine set. Would have been a great airlifter.
pjhydroInteresting debate everyones been having (just got back from me long hols…ah the life of an educator)
The Trident replacement comes down to several cost/benefit discussions.
What is the material cost of the system Vs gain in political prestige and military capability?
What is the cost/benefit to the reputation of Britain of keeping nuclear weapons Vs the cost/benefit of disarming?
What benefit is acheived by maintaining a deterent Vs the Cost of not?
Will there be a measurable cost or benefit to the UK military of maintaining or reducing this capability (ie will the perceived capability/threat of our conventional forces be diminished by the removal of these weapons from the armoury?)
What is the benefit/cost to the economy of keeping or losing this programme (ie “more hospitals” but “less dockyards” etc)
The scale of the deterent is massive when you consider the industrial, scientific and support infrastructure in place to make it and maintain it. There is a huge long term investment in skills and knowledge that goes way beyond simple arguements of “nukes bad/good” etc. The deterent is one reason the UK is still a leading nation in physics for instance.
Then there is the RN manpower, the four subs currently have six crews assigned to them, each around 135 men, its a big manpower drain, but conversely would that manpower be lost if Trident is lost? That would have a big knock on effect to bases, support, training establishments, which would all shrink.
pjhydroSpeaking of the A400, if our C-130’s are in such bad shape along with most of europes how come we are selling them to other nations when the RAF retire them. Indonesia has recently got some from europe and are for flying and some of the RAF ones went some where to?
Those are the airframes we rather moronicaly traded in for the C130Js back in the good old peace time days of the 1990s. Like the time we gave away a load of Canberra PR9s in the expectation that we wouldn’t need an attrition fleet for the type…
Those Herc airframes are actually the property of Lockheed and sold by them.
pjhydroI think the USA would flatly refuse to allow any local forces anywhere near their base (they may want to use it against Kumar one day, e.g. if its government is overthrown by one openly hostile to the USA), & AFAIK, the agreement between the USA & UK allows the USA to insist on sole use.
As for a base elsewhere in BIOT – how much oil would Kumar be willing to give the UK (BTW – we don’t import much from that part of the world at the moment – we’d probably sell it straight on – may as well give us cash) for access to an undeveloped island, far enough away from Diego Garcia not to breach our deal with the USA? How much would the UK want to compensate for winding up the USA & India by granting said access? Would a British government survive the inevitable scandal back home? Is there even a suitable island? Looking at a map, I don’t think there is.
No, I think the whole idea is a non-starter. Stick to the Seychelles, maybe Mauritius, if you want to extend your reach a little.
Its worth the try (like Kummar cares if the UK government falls!) and if it doesn’t work i’ll get the backing of the African Union to kick the frogs off of Reunion! 😀 Spins in chair stroking white cat….
pjhydroThe Canterbury’s main issues are that it is too small, the latest versions of AST have a well and are much longer and heavier, removing the prop-sea state 6 issue. The Kiwis went for the cheapest option and got what they paid for, a car ferry with a gun. The AST for Kummar is more devloped version, for instance it has three heli-spots on its flight deck compared to one on the Herald of FreeCanterbury.
In my plan they enter service between 2012-2022, so all sorts of design changes are possible.
To quote Merwede (jeez i better get comission)-
Amphibious capabilities: MERWEDE SHIPYARD Naval Division can create different solutions for the ship to shore transfer of heavy rolling equipment. Depending on the envisaged mission and the anticipated conditions during operation, the Client can opt for a cost-effective amphibious solution without a well dock with a ramp to ramp marriage system, or for a solution with a well dock.
pjhydroInteresting. I like the idea of co-operation with South Africa. They want your oil, you want their technology & industry. you both want peaceful seas & lack of interference from outside.
I’m unsure about the modified Valour AAW ships. I’d worry about topweight, trying to fit out a ship that size with area defence weapons & appropriate sensors. And can you clarify exactly what Merwede amphibious transport design you mean?
Also, have you considered a more capable alternative to the Clyde OPV? Not more capable for long endurance oceanic patrol (as far as I can see it’s hard to better at that), but with a hangar, like the Spanish BAM (85 mn euros apiece).
This puppy here-
http://www.merwede.com/index.php?id=2604&no_cache=1&tx_photogals_elementid=2929&tx_photogals_image=0
Would not be married to the Clyde. I just figured that at the early stage of fleet development I would keep it simple. The embarked type would be the Colibri in the early years so only realy for fair weather and training.
AAW Valour. Might be a bit heavy on top. It could be a slightly bigger hull. I just wanted to maintain as much commonality as possible and keep my supply footprint small. I was reckoning on using a naval “R-Darter ER” developed in SA with the development money I have thrown their way.
pjhydroDon’t see that happening, especially the second one. 😉
Funny thing is, any build up on the eastern edge of Africa would probably result in the build up of the IN and RAN since both would see Kumar as a threat, especially the RAN who base half their fleet in the pacific and half in the Indian Ocean.
Well thats their look out! 😀
As for BIOT an oil deal with the UK would swing it. The yanks use the base and they would be very happy to have a local watchman filling in for them. Each base would only be a refueling pier, some accomodation and a hardstanding for 4-6 MPA at sutible airfield.
pjhydroIn case anyone is confused that makes my KN order of battle by 2030-
6 Modified Valour AAW Frigate
12 Valour Class (Meko200SAN) FFH
12 Type209/1400
12 Clyde OPV
3 Merwede Amphibious Transport Ships
3 Aegir 18R replenishment Ships
1 Light Support Ship
Costal and riverine Sqn
3 Sqn 54 Lynx Wildcat
2 Sqn 36 Merlin UT
2 Sqn 24 P8K Poseidon MPA
1 Sqn 12 Dash8MPA
1 Sqn 18 Colibri
Marine Brigade- 3 bns + Artillery, Engineer and Light Armour Rgt.
As well as bases in Seychelles an BIOT.
pjhydroOk, here goes, I took up your £18 Billion challenge rather than 35. My bid goes for a phased approach in order to build up capability and experience and spread the costs out. I figure there is no way Kummar Navy (KN) could just buy a capable force and pluck the men to operate it out of a hat…
Phase 1
5 year programme Approximate Cost – £1Billion + Oil deals (2009-2014)
12 Clyde Class OPV (£360mil)
1 Support Ship – converted from an oil industry support ship (£100Mil)
1 Sqn 18 EC120 Colibri (£18mil)
1 Sqn 12 Dash8 MPA (£360mil)
1 Sqn of mixed costal and riverine patrol craft approx 30 vessels (£100 mil)
Raising of Bn of Marines to form core of future Marine Brigade (set aside £25 mil for barracks, training ground, weapons etc etc)
Naval Training Facility with training vessels (set aside £100Mil)
This should –
A) Form the basis of a solid training capability
B) Secure Kummar’s newly found oil wealth
C) Help close the Mozambique Channel to refugee and people smugglers as Kummar’s new found wealth will make it a mecca for illegal immigration.
D) Allow a small contribution to piracy patrols to the north.
Would also send officers and sailors to train and exchange with USN, RN, SAN, RSN, IN, RAN etc in exchange for oil.
Phase 2
10 year programme Approximate Cost – £ 9 Billion (2012-2022)
12 Valour Class (Meko200SAN) FFH (£3Billion)
6 Type209/1400 (£360mill)
3 Merwede Amphibious Transport Ships (£250million)
3 Aegir 18R replenishment Ships (£2Billion)
2 Sqn 36 Lynx Wildcat (£720Mil)
1 Sqn 18 Merlin UT (£500Mil)
12 P8K Poseidon MPA (£1.5 Billion)
Creation of second marine Bn and supporting engineer and artillery units. (£500Mil)
Chose the Valour/Meko Frigate for commonality with Kummar’s nearest ally South Africa, which would allow easy exchange, ops, engineering support etc, its is also very capable of upgrade in my latter phase 3. Chose Merwede AST as perfect for the small interventions/peacekeeping/piracy work the KN will now start to concentrate on along the East Coast of Africa. Went for Type209/1400 for the same reasons of commonality with SAN as the MEKO.
Worth pointing out that at this point the KN would be the most powerful navy in Africa and the third most powerful in the Indian Ocean, behind the IN and RAN.
Phase 3
15 year programme Approximate cost – £8 Billion (2015-2030)
Building of Port and Airfield facilities in Seychelles and BIOT – would extend reach of Subs and MPA across Indian Ocean. (£1Billion + oil deals with Seychelles and UK)
Investment in South African Missile development (£1Billion) in order to supply missiles for 6 AAW “modified Valour Class” and Land Attack Missile for Frigate update. (See below.)
Valour Class Upgrade (£1 Billion) in conjunction with SAN to include.
*AUV for mine warfare.
*Upgraded Umkhonto SAM
*Land Attack Missile
*Larger caliber gun
*Rototary UAV
*Radar and sonars.
6 Modified Valour class Area AAW Frigates with APAR. (£2Billion)
6 Type209A/1400 (£360 Mil)
1 Sqn 12 P8K Poseidon MPA (£1.5 Billion)
1 Sqn 18 Merlin UT (£500Mil)
1 sqn 18 LynxWildcat (for marines) (£360mil)
Raising of third Marine BN and the addition of a light armoured regiment. (£500mil)
pjhydroJeez I go on holiday and miss all the fun. Ok give me a chance to get me pen and paper out and a few hours to come up with smart **** comments about stuff while I unpack me bags….
pjhydroChinook? :diablo:
What Grim said :p
pjhydroSo essentially a waterproof Remote weapon Station?
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