pjhydroPeople are quick to knock the 412 but the reality is that the Bell family has always been a helicopter of choice in the Gulf and the performance of the type is more than adequate. There is a strong arguement that these helicopters would add a degree of flexibility that we are currently lacking!
We dont’ need wonderfully advanced helicopters -just machines that are capable and proven – the 412 fits that bill.
A few points I would make.
1) Gulf is not Afghanistan and Pakistan don’t use their 412s etc up in the Hindu Kush, thats what they have Mil 8/17s for. Look at the Canadian experience of 412s, they are being used like Lynx’s because they have very little reserve power at that height.
2) If we introduce another fleet its going to be very expensive. To deploy 6 Bell 412s to Afghan we will need a minimum of 18 helicopters. If you want a full minimum sqn of 12 then you will need nearer 36, eg you will need to buy three squadrons worth.
3) Yes pilots are familiar with the Bells, but troops aren’t and they will need fam training on the type. Uk weapons and def aids will need clearance on Bells, Boscombe will have to evaluate the types of kit that will fit into it and under it and write a mannual on the tolerances and clearances etc, radios will need fitting and testing, it will take a long time to introduce a new type to the frontline.
pjhydroHuge build delays, a fire and now the jetty…if I was a superstitious man…..
I would have though the next batch could be ‘B’ class…Broke, Bankrupt, Bust, Broken….
pjhydroYou’ll be lucky, the BBC is about as anti war as an organisation gets, they will use dead soldiers families as pawns in their game and do as little as possible to report good news from warzones that have UK troops deployed whilst overplaying all bad news.
Really? Never had that impression myself. The BBC tends to walk a path that avoids Channel 5/Sun pro-war style stories and I guess this gives the impression that they are “anti-war”. Lack of flag waving patriotism and vitriol does not mean they are anti-war. In fact Radio 2 has done quite a bit of broadcasting on behalf of the troops, even sent Chris Evans to Cyprus to broadcast with the Afghan relief battalion there, if they were “anti-war” they would never have done that.
I guess people want Fiona Bruce to sit astride a 50Cal while she read the news….:D
pjhydroBell 412? In what way is it hot-high sutible? The AAC/RAF use it for training/SAR jobs in the UK, cyprus, Brunei and Belize. They thump around mainly at sea level and rarely in the sort of temps expereinced in an afghan summer. The Cannucks had a real debate about whether it was worth deploying their Griffons to Afghan, they did in the end but mainly in a light utility/ convoy cover role – exactly what the Lynx is doing.
If we go to Blackhawk or NH90 we will be repeating history and adding yet another small fleet to the inventory. We must take the opportunity to consolidate on three to four types – Chinook, Merlin, Wildcat and perhaps a light utility type to be used to replace Bell 412/212, A109E etc, perhaps A109, maybe AW149 but a type mainly for the non op stuff and training leaving a frontline fleet of the first three.
A wild idea maybe to retire Puma immediately. Transfer crews and techs to the Merlin, chinook and sea king sqns. Use the money saved to upgrade seakings and swell the procurement pot with a promise to stand up 230 and 33 sqn with Merlin by 2012-13. Once the RAF has gone exclusively Merlin/Chinook, they pick up the mantle so the FAA can then retire the Seakings immediately and use the money to stand up 845 and 846 with Merlin by 2018-19. All tied up with a large joint OCU.
pjhydroHarry,
Looking at the hours tally, the average was well short of 6,000. And there was a paperwork mod to extend to 8,000, anyway.For between £1 and £1.5 m we could have produced what was effectively a brand new Jag (with less than 2,000 hours on the clock) and with 5,500+ hours useful life remaining.
See that was my understanding of the situation. They were such a waste. I almost cried when I saw a pile of rusting GR3s on “Richard Hammonds Blast Lab” when I was watching TV with my daughter, so sad.
pjhydroHello,
“The Commons select committe advises the new helicopters be purchased, rather than simply upgrading old ones”.
Dare I ask ?
As the early HC1’s -HC2’s were from the 1980’s timeline.
Were the original RAF Chinook’s “Brand New” helicopters or just Boeing Re-Builds of earlier/Vietnam era models ?
Alex
The Chinooks were new. Updated in the 90s to HC2.
pjhydrofor the time scale people are going to demand we cant get Merlins. Lets buy a helicopter thats already in theatre in mass numbers so that if we have an issue with spares we can get them off the yanks in an emergency. Those boys are already flying in spare parts every week of the year so lets say great supply lines can you add a few of this and that for us.
We buy 10-20 hawks now and im sure we can get them crewed and in afghanistan in no time.
Crewed how? there is a shortage, pilots would have to convert and techies would need to train. Troops would need familiarisation training, a whole spares and engineering system set up…take a couple of years from the off.
pjhydroWell thats an anti-climax. Where’s the blokes with massive hammers, huge molten pots of metal, skips full of rivets? The romance is all gone.:rolleyes:
pjhydroI don’t think we will ever see typhoon deployed to Afghanistan which is a real shame. If it had of been and had the necessary upgrades we could of seen alot more foreign purchases. It will probably loose in India for this reason.
Typhoon is likely to be the next type deployed to Afghan, udging by the length of the Harrier deloyment, in about 3 years.
As for losing competitions its more to do with the price. Typhoon is very high end product, India is really looking for something a bit cheaper.
pjhydroIt’s simple really, we buy up slots on the new Italian Chinook line (I say at least double total numbers), replace all Gazelles with either the UH-72 or the EC 635, increase and accelerate Wildcat production, order a TON more merlins (at least another 48) and work on replacing the 130 or so Sea Kings and Pumas with at least 220 NH90.
Oh yeah, and lift the recruitment cap so we can get in pilots and ground crew for them all.
We could use more Apaches too 🙂
WOW, even in the good times thats way beyond budget, and as for these days!! Not sure we need more chinooks, we have 48 already and its a very expensive type to operate, people forget that Chinook was really the replacement for light transport types like Andover.
Why replace Gazelle? Thats what the UAVs, wildcat and the Longbow radar on Apache are for, they can all do it so much better.
Why add NH90 to the list of types? As I said earlier the main problem with the UK is too many diverse types. We need to concentrate the limited funds on three (four at most) types so we have a greater number to deploy.
pjhydroI have to disagree with the black hawks purchase. Much better off purchasing merlin and looking into what can fill a cheap role for moving 10-20 soliders as a replacement for the Puma’s. Merlin seems to be so expensive i’m not sure why. Maybe we could get a deal on buy 60 at once so a decent price can be obtained.
Its expensive because its built in the UK and despite recent falls exchange rate still makes it more pricey. Its also a very large helicopter, remember it has three engines, so already that cost is 50% greater than a two engined type.
pjhydroThe incoming Tory Administration will be confronted with the fact that the defence budget has been grossly underfunded, and after more than fifty years of relentless defence cuts there is nothing left that can be cut. The fat went in the 80s, muscle and sinew in the 90s and we are now left with bare bone. If money has to be cut at all it should be by withdrawal from the ‘Stan. If we aren’t going to fund the operation properly then we should pull out altogether and stop wasting the lives of our service personnel. That would be the stark choice I would present to Cameron, ‘put up or shut up’. You can’t fight wars on a shoestring. We can afford much more than we are at present, as so much is squandered elsewhere (ID cards anyone? £18billion? What about axing the Quangos…).
Could not have said it better. The concept of the “Peace dividend” has to be one of the greatest political smoke and mirror tricks of recent years.
As for pulling your weight militarily, I think its more than just alliance obligtions, its also the price of trading on the world stage. If you have merchant ships at sea, if you have global trade then you are duty bound to assist in maritime security. If you leave it to others then you are reaping the benefits without paying the price. There are too many nations guilty of this.
pjhydroThe deck markings, specifically the angled deck centre line to which you refer,etc…..
Cheers, obvious really.
pjhydroAccording to the RAF website, that Jaguar GR-3 aircraft that they apperntly have seems to be perfect for this afghan job…….
Yeah, the RAF did really well disbanding its specialist out of area deployment attack Recce and CAS wing at Coltishall. One of the poorer decisions of the last few years. The only issue with Jag would have been power at hot-high. Would perhaps have needed more power or deployment of tankers…
…A squadron of jags deployed with 3-4 Herc tankers fitted out with Harvest Hawk, now that would have been a great team.
pjhydroslightly off topic to a degree, but related. Carrier deck markings.
What is the philosophy, thinking, need etc behind how you paint up your carrier deck. Why did the old ark go with red centre markings, why did this vanish with the CVS? Saw in the film CVF is keeping up the CVS style markings, which must be a first for an RN carrier to keep the deck markings of the previous class… just curious.
Sign In
