I agree with everything else in your post.

However the idea that private businesses operate efficiently without the monstrous waste and incompetence and lack of strategic planning evidenced by HM Gov is naive. There is plenty of waste and incompetence in the private sector as well.
Al

TRUE! But you do usually lose your job after 8 years of c**k ups and coming back with the same “er sorry we forgot to plan AGAIN! can we have some money please boss?” 😀

Do you honestly think Gloucesters GWS30 was the same as Bristols was in 73?… The fighting G’s performance unfortunately did little to impress and was the last time, I recall, that the RN has been asked to provide AAW overwatch on any USN vessel.

Not at all, quite aware its been upgraded, but at its heart it was still a 1960s design, that entered service in the early 70s and in the 90s was performing a role not originally designed for it. Sea Dart is old and I would imagine that the RN hasn’t been asked mainly because the USN now has plenty of Aegis destroyers and besides we have not really been involved in that sort of conflict since.

T42 was compromised to the point of hopelessness at birth…. T42 got Sea Dart to sea and that is about all you can say for the class.

But none the less the RN got ships, it was never going to get a bag full of Bristols or Type 43 et al, they were far too big and expensive given the state of the economy in the 1970s (a point to consider now). In the bigger picture of ships of the RN and world who would willingly buy a T42? Agreed. But it was what was affordable and also perhaps underlines some of the points people have been making about treasury interference etc.

Did I make a comparison between the US Standard missile system and GWS30?. You implied that the USN were lucky that Sea Dart was there to save their BB – I know some in the USN who believe they were just lucky period!.

No you didn’t but it was perhaps worth pointing out that point. We have a history of being very cynical towards our own weapons systems in this country and a pertenent fact was that while GWS 30 in 1991 might not have dazzled everyone, it is still the only war validated area-weapon system and one the UK should be proud of.

Detection, assessment and tracking are all so much more critical in the system… SAMPSON sat atop that lovely big …. Its not going to reach out 120km though – do the calculations….. but we arent going to start shooting until 65-70km at very best and a contemporary strikefighter/AShM combination will have released 50km before that….Indeed. Sea Viper will doubtless be the very scourge of early 80’s French technology!.

I agree with you entirely, never said it would shoot down at 120km, detection is essential. But it is AN aim, as a result of lessons (relearnt in fact from WW2) of 1982 that it is easier to bring down the launch aircraft than wait for the weapons release or the bomb run.

How many of our potential opponents are actually better equipped than this? Like our discussion of how far a PAAMS shoot down will occur, it is also reading too much into the dealers brouchre to believe that a strike aircraft will actually be able to accurately launch a strike at a range in excess of 100km, like Sea Vipers 120km range allows manoeuvre and chase, so the longer ranges of AshM are more to do with fancy dog-legs and multiple directions, launch aircraft will be much much closer, or at higher altitude and therefore detectable at a greater range.

No, as soon as I heard how much FSAF/PAAMS was likely to cost, back in the late 90’s I think it was, I never believed we would see 12 Darings in the first place!. For our commitments and taskings now I think 8 hulls is the right number – 12 would be luxurious and, to be honest, I’d rather that £2.5bn on the 4 extra hulls be put to better use. Think of what that kind of money could do in UAV, USV and AUV R&D, how much more satellite bandwidth we could get and how many UOR’s that could be filled for the lads on ops.

Well you must have had precognisence then because that was the stated need of the RN given its commitments at the time. 12 Destroyers aren’t really a luxury? We will have 6, the RAN is buying 3 and considering 4 and they have nothing like the commitments or the escort requirements of the RN…. I suppose we can make do with less now on the other hand as to fit the current depleted fleet the government has just reduced the standing commitments of the RN and reduced our global presence.

Surely UORs demonstrate that the military hierarchy and their financial masters are reactive and plan badly. We have been in Afgghanistan for 8 years now and we are still relying on UORs to meets needs? In private business people would have been fired by now! They are a very expensive way to get kit and show an extreme lack of foresight

No its not. Its cynicism borne of irrational fear. As stated in naval procurement, since T42, we actually havent done too badly in terms of delivered capability. Ocean was serious value for money, the Bays are a lot more than what they replaced and the T23’s represented excellent capability for the spend even if we have been lucky with them to some extent.

But Ocean would support the argument I’m trying to get across. Its not the gold plated LPH the RN would really have liked, its built to commercial standards, is quite slow, basic systems when first launched, BUT by careful planning the RN got a ship it desperately needed at a price the UK could afford. Which is what I am saying, if we go at FSC with a massive list of the perfect ship for the job with all the tools we want, it will not happen and then treasury will dictate terms and you will end up with a T42 or continual delays like CVF. If you look at what we can afford from the start, consider what the treasury will agree to (like Ocean) then there is a good chance the RN will get the hull numbers it needs to do the job.

I used to live in Canada in the 1990s and was constantly astounded thet the DOD would ask for amazing systems and programmes from the Liberal Govt of the time, knowing that they would never get the money, refuse a lesser system and get nothing.

Clearly this thread was started to start a flame war , the author has been baiting since he joined this forum. Glad to see that members here didnt fall into the trap.

Well said!

OK. Lesson 101 from Corporate was the need to detect a contact at that kind of range – not try shooting it down!.Just as with aircraft-launched weapons naval SAMs have a No Escape Zone. Sea Vipers NEZ does not extend to 120km off the boat!.

Well detection is part of that same lesson. I wouldn’t sugget 120km range is actually the shoot down range but allows for manouvre and chase. Downing a launch aircraft is so much easier than detecting and bringing down the missiles it has released. PAAMS would have been able to bring down SEntendards before they launched in 1982, while they approach at low level they still had to pop up to detect and launch, the quick reaction time and velocity of PAAMS and sea Viper is designed to do that.

Taking out launch aircraft, reliably, is the job of aircraft outside the fleet MEZ!

AGREED! lets just hope that CVF is given a complement of aircraft and has Meteor integrated on those aircraft, at the moment neither looks likely. In lieu of that, PAAMS and SV has to shoulder some of that burden.

The mob has been called the silent service for a lot longer than CVF has been on the scopes. T22, T42 were both examples of treasury interference in naval requirements and they were acceeded too with relatively little outcry.

At the same time that they became more obsessed with their pensions and careers. There were resignations in the late 1960s when senior officers still had honour and the interest of the service above their wallets.

Gloucester missed with her first shot and had the inbound cross her bows before she took the second shot. She ended up launching back towards the battlewagon with her second in a tailchase to catch the Iraqi missile. Area defence it wasnt!. Sorry to dispell that illusion but, while its the only missile-missile warshot kill on record, it was not a glowing performance from GWS30!.

But it still won the day??!! what do you want? The idea that there is a perfect system that works first time and does what it says on the tin is pure fantasy. GWS 30 entered service in 1973 and was an 18 year old system, designed to take down MPAs and bombers in the mid atlantic here working in a littoral environment bringing down a missile… thats a bl**dy brilliant performance!

T42 was born of budget constraints but has performed well and it meant that the RN got the hull numbers it wanted, a ‘better ship’ was unaffordable and would have been downgraded or bought in small numbers.

PS GWS 30 is the only war validated area weapon system, lets not forget for all its fanfare AEGIS has never been fired in anger….

A stealth aircraft with a top notch radar and the latest AAMs can ONLY cruise supersonic WITHOUT afterburner for a minimum of 200NM?…well its C**p then 😀 :diablo:

SS-26 – how on earth could you possibly think a Mig25 on steroids could compare?

If the choice is a between a limited point-defence-only missile on C1 and an additional 48 Asters or 256 local area capable CAMM’s in the escort group I wouldnt be too troubled by the latter.

So shoot down the launch aircraft before an attack begins or hope your point defence picks up all the incoming….. I know which i’d rather and I think 1982 underlines the point very well.

Thats a treasury arguement to save money – “But look you’ll get more! and for less money!” – while totally missing the point.

In other such situations, notably CVF, the Treasury have been slapped back into their box. There is no reason to expect any different here.

How has the treasury been slapped back in their box? The RN has surrendered a large portion of the active escort fleet, 6 T45, SSN numbers, Sea Harrier, Invincible, Wildcat numbers, annual fuel allowance, training funds……all to get CVF. Yeah! WOOP! What a moral victory! see the HMG slapped down!

Speaking of museums..
Does the F3 have any combat or deployment history to make it attractive to museums…(other than those that will take any airplane)?

The one interesting Tornado ADV that a museum would have wanted was the first UK fighter to fly non-stop across the Atlantic. It was scrapped years ago….nothing like the junior service keeping a close eye on its heritage.

Not bad, strech it a little further, giving a merlin sized deck, add a hanger, and main gun (anything from twin “fast” 40mm through to 76mm), aft CIWS, crewserve spots and space “for, but not with” Harpoon launchers and I think we could have a contender, I mean if it’s decided that it really needs CAMM they could use the land based style rack at the forend of the workdeck, or anywhere else they can find the room.

So essential redesign it as a 3500-4000 ton Frigate then?