Well I’ve looked at 1(O)SAG accidents from formation in April 1918 until 11th November and though there are a number of fatalities, in every aircraft case there are either a pair of deaths or both crew accounted for.
So I can only assume that the accident your grandfather described must have occurred sometime between 11th November 1918 and February 1919.
Absolutely SJ
– I only mentioned it in passing because he did not appear to have an ‘official’ aircrew category but that did not necessarily mean he did not fly quite regularly as a ‘gunner’,the war might have ended before he had a chance of qualifying/remustering.
Sometimes if a tradesman was keen and good at his job – it was difficult to remuster to aircrew and much might depend on ones immediate ‘bosses’ attitudes etc.
Ahh them were the days… 🙂
Hi Tom
He would not have needed to be an observer to fly with the RFC/RAF – between 1918 and 1939 the air gunner position was mostly fulfilled by volunteer ground tradesmen,the RFC/RAF were very pragmatic about aircrew categories – also the 2 seater aircraft designed with pilot in the front cockpit would (mostly) need ballast in the rear cockpit anyway to retain a reasonable CofG (centre of gravity) and self loading ballast is much easier than lifting (say) 70 pounds of ballast into the rear cockpit : ).
Bazv: quite correct! However the reverse of the AIR 79 card is usually annotated ‘air gunner’ in the case of these airmen. It’s not in the case of TC Kay. Plus of course he was not serving on an active squadron and so I strongly suspect he was in the ‘mobile ballast’ category.
I think 23rd July would indicate a return to ‘A1G1Z1’ rather than an accident/incident. So I think it only would serve as an indicator that the accident happened before that date.
Again that’s a bit of supposition and I think his Casualty Form would give the exact date of infirmity.
My accountant still had a fax facility. A good way of sending documents if
you don’t have a scanner.
…which is a bit like saying a cylinder player is a good way of playing music of you don’t have a gramophone.
🙂
Tom,
Those details came from his AIR 79 record, which is available from the National Archives (exact file number is AIR 79/1129/125931). It’s also available from FindMy Past.
It’s only one double-sided sheet, so maybe if I transcribe the main bits it will give you a start:
Enlisted in the Army 19th December 1916, aged 19 years and 6 months (length of engagement: duration of war, civilian occupation: apprentice engineer). He gave his next of kin as Mary Kay (mother) Hulsden House, Rockville St, Birkenhead. He was 5ft 5 3/4 inches tall, with a 29 1/2-inch chest and a mole on his left cheek.
Entered RFC 29th January 1918 with service no. 125931 (transferred to RAF on 1st April 1918) as rank 2/AM (Air Mechanic, 2nd class) in trade of Fitter (Gen).
Posted to 3 School of Aerial Gunnery at New Romney (circa January 1918) – correct title is No.3 (Aux) School of Aerial Gunnery – his record just says ‘3SAG’.
1st April 1918 – rank now AM/3 (Air Mechanic, 3nd class) – creation of RAF/rank structure changed.
No.3 SAG disbanded 9th March 1918 and absorbed into No.1 (Observers) School of Aerial Gunnery at Hythe/New Romney. His record doesn’t show the move until 4th April 1918 (‘1SAG’ on his record).
Recollection of a crash on a beach would agree with his entire RFC/RAF service spent at Hythe/New Romney.
Discharged at Prees Heath Dispersal Centre 25th January 1919, to Class G Reserve on 23rd February. No.1 SAG disbanded on 14th February, so his discharge seems to be concurrent with that.
There is an annotation that his medical category changed to ‘A’ on 23rd July 1918 at 1 SAG, and this may relate to the incident you mentioned.
Side B only states that his RFC/RAF trade was Fitter (General).
These Schools would not have transferred overseas and I think it more likely that if true, his story of a unit moving to France related to his army service pre-1918.
No evidence that I can find regarding any accident, though there were a number related to No.1 & No.3 SAG. I would try the RAF Museum for his Casualty Form and see if it exists: if it does, it will give a date for any medical issues. People often assume that ‘Casualty Form’ means that an individual died or was injured, but that was not their purpose.
According to his record he was a Fitter (General), and not an observer or officer. His airman’s record shows him with 3 School of Air Gunnery and 1 School of Air Gunnery from 4th April 1918 to end of service.
No evidence of active squadron service but it seems likely that he’d have flown at the SAG’s and probably that’s where he received his injury. Joined the RFC in January 1918 as a 2/AM (Airman 2nd Class), then 3/AM on creation of the RAF.
Discharged at Prees Heath Dispersal Centre in January 1919 by the look of it.
Would need to look it up, but Schools of Air Gunnery were at Ayr, Turnberry, Markse, Hythe etc.
Tom,
Download his record card and start a wonderful journey! I love this stuff since it can take you to locations he flew from, to the National Archives, to the RAF Museum and elsewhere!
If he was rear-facing then likely an RE.8 or F.2b Observer (BE.2 etc had the gunner in the front), but get his AIR 76 service record and that will give you a starting point. Also RAF Museum for his Casualty Form. Being an Observer, he may not have as complete an AIR 76 record as a pilot would, but his Casualty Form will fill in any gaps.
Then it’s on to the squadron records (National Archives), Henshaw’s bible (see above) and onwards.
If in doubt, let us have his name and we’ll give it a go.
Good luck.
just a quick observation,
why do aircraft museums have contact E mail addresses yet they don’t bother to respond:mad:
It’s bit of a sweeping statement: both RAF Museum and IWM are very good at responding.
Examples?
One of these?
https://www.amazon.ca/Broken-Arrow-Americas-Nuclear-Weapon/dp/0889953481
https://books.google.ca/books/about/Lost_Nuke.html?id=m_kFNv1cOiMC&redir_esc=y
That’s the one – Lost Nuke. Good title.
There is a book about this B-36 crash. which I bought in Canada a few years ago. Worth a look, though it is heavy on conspiracy theory. Anyone know this one? Sadly I lost it before I got back to the UK.
It alighted.
That’s what flying boats (mostly) do.Why would an RFC fighter pilot necessarily have preferred a DH6 to an Avro?
In short – it’s very doubtful an RFC pilot (scout pilot OR artillery) would prefer a DH.6 to anything. They were unloved and I’d say the Avro would be a preferred option every time.
So it’s a fair question and I can’t think of a reason…
EDIT: unless it came down to cost or availability I guess.
Love that Figoni & Falaschi Talbot!
Well according to the auction house, it was “very unique”, so unless your museum has a piece which is more unique than this bit, I’d say less than 3.5.
Elephants.
But then again, if the museum has a piece of canvas then it’s most likely from a tent. Again I’d still say it depends on its degree of uniqueness. And maybe if it is actually a piece of canvas.
To be fair, discouraging visits from non-pilots seems to be just one measure. Less people on site means less info about the site being shared in the public domain. Same goes for a close look at the Facebook postings some owners make. “Hooray: aircraft X flying again after fitting a new zero-houred engine” does not help for a low-profile in the public domain.
The gist of my post above was that it’s not beyond impossible that at least one pilot might be involved in said thefts: thus rather pointless excluding one group and pretending the problem has gone.