VympelOriginally posted by h177
With out Stealth define a fifth generation aircraft?
Avionics.
I thought the Su-32 used the AL-31, which would be a turbofan? Must be a typo. On that note, however, is there any news regarding the engine for the series-produced Su-34s? There’s been some speculation that the AL-41 is or was being considered.
Definitely a typo. As far as I know all the prototypes use AL-31F, and the series produced aircraft are supposed to use AL-41F, though which version I don’t know.
VympelWhy is it called “series-built”? Wouldn’t be necessary some kind of Order from VVS to allow one to use this term? :confused:
Does anyone know what kind of upgrade has it undergone?
Earlier this year it was reported that the 8th and 9th aircraft were under construction, which were to have a new avionics suite (including new cockpit) and in general be a lot different than the previous seven aircraft- I can only assume that this is the 8th aircraft and is “series-standard”, i.e. it has all the features that regular ‘line’ aircraft will have, while the previous aircraft were prototypes with varying standards of systems, and used to test different things. We know that 2 years ago the B004 passive electronic scan phased array radar was still undergoing problems- at MAKS 2001 a Tu-134 with the nose of the Su-34 was shown- it was a testbed to test the B004. I can only guess that by now, the B004 is fixed/upgraded.
I found the Chechnya stuff pretty interisting (reminded me of Su-25 / Gratch being tested in combat in Afeganistan). [/B]
I wish there was a comprehensive report of their findings in that respect- the Ka-50s in Chechnya were big news, for example.
VympelIt is Su-34- Su-32 is applied to the prototype aircraft, Su-34 to series production:
One Against Ten
Russkiy Kur’er has been able to find out the combat potential of the new Russian fighter bomber
On Saturday, the series-built Su-34 fighter bomber, produced by the Novosibirsk Chkalov Aviation Production Association (NAPO), completed a first test flight. The chief of the military’s general staff, Anatoliy Kvashnin, and the air force commander-in-chief, General-Colonel Vladimir Mikhaylov, arrived to watch the new airplane’s sortie. In principle, this aircraft is already known to them.
The Su-34 is an upgraded variant of the Su-32 strike airplane, of which NAPO already has built seven units. They all of passed military tests and even, as sources at the plant have told us, carried out strikes against combatants in Chechnya. The military say that the Su-34 and Su-32 are aircraft which have no analogues in the world. Therefore, their performance is kept secret.
However, we have succeeded in getting some data in private conversations. One of the NAPO engineers told Russkiy Kur’er that each such fighter-bomber is able to simultaneously “have” ten targets and to knock out a battalion strong point with its missile and bomb load. At the same time, our source noted that an infantry battalion holds a line at the front of about 3 – 5 kilometers. And at a press conference after the first Su-34 test flight, it only was said that the new airplanes will begin to replace the Su-24 tactical bombers which have been in the air force inventory more than 20 years already.
Commander-in-chief Vladimir Mikhaylov also reported that the state defense order for the production of the fighter bombers will be situated at the Novosibirsk Aviation Production Association. “We will assign so much work to the enterprise that it will have to increase the quantity of workers,” the general promised. True, he refused to name the size of the order, referring to the secrecy of such information. For their part, our sources from NAPO say that the commander-in-chief promised the plant in the presence of the chief of the general staff the funds for the production of on the order of 20 Su-34 “strikers.”
Fifteen years have passed from concept to series production. From open sources it is known that the Sukhoy OKB began work on the new strike airplane at the end of 1988. According to the air force task, the fighter-bomber in basic performance, survivability and combat readiness was supposed to guarantee destruction of ground and surface, including small-sized and moving, enemy targets day and night, in good and poor weather conditions and also in jamming conditions. The first flight of the Su-32 took place on 18 December 1993. Sukhoy OKB test pilots Igor’ Votintsev and Evgeniy Revunov piloted the airplane.
The new strike airplane possesses high combat survivability. The Su-32 protection system consists of an armored cockpit, armor protection, and a system for extinguishing engine fires. Back-up, redundancy and shielding of the basic systems also is provided. The Su-32 power plant consists of two AL-21F (afterburning) turbojet engines. For effective control of the combat aerial complex, the fighter-bomber’s crew consists of two men – an airman and a navigator-operator. They are seated side-by-side in an armored cockpit, which allows a significant increase in the effectiveness of their operation. One can call the conditions of their seating fully comfortable, since there is a special rest area behind the ejection seats with a an on-board first aid kit, rations, thermoses with drinking water and even a toilet ((ASSENIZATSIONNOE USTROYSTVO)). The crew members can stand up fully taking turns in this zone. Right now each experimental Su-32 aircraft is in a way a flying laboratory for testing one or the other on-board equipment in accordance with a defined program. The eighth “striker,” assembled at NAPO, has received the Su-34 index. In particular, mass production of the new airplanes will begin with it. It also is known that the normal takeoff weight of the fighter bomber is 38,240 kilograms and the weight of the combat payload is 8,000 kilograms. Its practical ceiling is 15,000 meters. Maximum flight speed at sea level is 1,400 kilometers per hour, and at altitude now 1,900 kilometers per hour. Operational radius at altitude reaches 1,100 kilometers. Maximum endurance of a combat mission with refueling is about 10 hours.
Source: 22.12.03, Russkiy Kur’er
VympelOriginally posted by Srbin
hmmm so how much can this thing carry and whats in it to make it a 5th generation fighter-bomber? It really isnt stealthy
Who says fifth-generation necessarily equals stealth?
VympelI’m quite tired of hearing about these mythical Syrian Su-27s. Until I see some hard documentary or photographic evidence, bah humbug. Not to mention a Syrian Su-27 won’t be able to do anything to an Israeli ground target, because unless it’s an Su-27SM or Su-27UBM, it won’t have a useful ground attack capability (unless it drops iron bombs/rockets …)
VympelThere is no such thing as MiG-29K2.
It’s MiG-29K, and it’s index is 9.41. The MiG-29KUB is 9.47. And no, I don’t mean the original MiG-29K that lost to the Su-33- it’s index was 9.31.
As for indigenous carriers, by the time they’re around Rafale-Ms will be pedestrian.
VympelMr. Sergey S. Korotkov, the Vice General Manager of SUKHOI Aircraft Company, told Kanwa at the interview that the modeling stage of the overall project has been completed. There are a variety of design concepts, and none of them has entered the stage of wind tunnel test. He said that the 5th generation fighter would not use AL41 engine; rather, it will adopt brand new engine.
I doubt it.
VympelAnd how many are operational ??
The entire MiG-31 force has electronically scanned, phased array radars. Didn’t you know that?
VympelNo that they have not paid attention to how technology has left them behind.
Nonsense, they knew they were behind and there were various programs to rectify the situation.
I’m sorry dropping dumb bombs on a city is a low tech way to try and handle a guerilla threat and it is not effective in the least bit at stopping a guerilla army. All that does is add to recuitment and of course make the nation doing the bombing look real bad. Dropping dumb bombs in a city does not kill the guerillas just the opposite it adds to the guerilla problem.
At least PGMs can strike a target such as a TV station or bridge where yes people will get mad but not as mad as wiping villages of the face of the Earth becuase you cannot hit anything in any weather other then a bright sunny day. Also it is a lot more effective to use a JDAM to support ground troops then trying at it with dumb bombs and hoping to hit the rebels and avoid hitting your own troops.
Artillery is the preferred method for the support of ground troops in the East. For this the Russians have the most comprehensive array of PGM artillery shells in world. These were used in Afghanistan and Chechnya, when required, though funds were always an issue in the latter case. JDAMs is nice, but there’s more than one way to skin a cat and the cost is prohibitive.
Maybe Russia does not care about killing it’s own troops as long as they can bomb a village full of women and childern in responce.
Whatever.
I shudder to think how bad Russia will do if they ever have to face a decent sized armed forces and a convertional war without nukes.
See WW2 for your answer.
Oh yeah and Russian equipment was in the Desert Storm and it failed miserbly
Yeah, export model T-72M1 tanks with inferior ammunition against 30 ton heavier M1 tanks at the head of the superpower, being crewed by incompetent Iraqi idiots against the best trained forces in the Western world. Whatever.
the same way it failed in Serbia.
Right, because it’s quite reasonable to expect 30 year old equipment like SA-6s to be effective against 1990s forces.
Bad comparison. The North Vietnamese had a real military unlike the Afgans. There was a North Vietnamese navy, air force and army. The Afgans were religous students from muslim nations with much less training and equipment.
And I suppose you’ve never heard of the Viet Cong.
Compare the preformance of the Russian air force in delibartly targeting civilains and then compare that to the USAF/USN with it’s all weather ability. Note that America has beaten Afganistan and air power played a huge role.
Hardly a difficult job considering that the Taliban did not have super power support, funding, or training, as well as an open border over which to receive arms, unlike the situation in the 1980s.
And American air power in Afganistan is a lot better then what the Russians did. And before you comment that it was years later remember that Russia has only gotten weaker since then.
So what? You made all sorts of BS claims about “all weather” capability and what it means, let me remind you something: the insurgency in Iraq continues. The war in Afghanistan continues. All weather bombing has done nothing to end those conflicts, and will not. It’s a war of ideas and hearts and minds, intelligence, and skill on the ground. You assign undue importance to airpower.
The South Vietnamese lasted until 1975 go figure.
???
A good deal of helicopters have gone down taking the crews and passengers with them.
Oh, I see, and if the Russians had all weather PGMs in huge quantities it wouldn’t happen? Oh, whoops: how many helicopters did the US lose last month? How many men died? Care to remind me? Fat lot of good their PGMs did them there.
The fact of the matter is your equating PGMs to some sort of huge, war deciding importance in guerilla wars is completely bogus.
VympelSrbin, the Su-27IB/32/34 whatever it’s called this week isn’t intended to replace the Tu-142s, and that it’ll replace the Tu-22Ms is speculation at best- but even if that speculation were true, I haven’t seen any legitimate source that’s contended it’s intended to replace them all. The Tu-22Ms won’t be around in 2020, that’s for sure, but I think another aircraft will be in the offing. The Yak-130 will be just a trainer- there’s talk of it being some sort of light attack aircraft but really, that’s the Su-25s niche, the Yak-130 can’t fill that.
In 2020, the Russian Air Force and Naval Aviation will be, IMO:
– PAK FAs (small number- probably around 100)
– Su-32s (several hundred)
– Tu-160s & Tu-95MS (upgraded)
– Yak-130 advanced trainers, Yak-52M prop trainers??? (or Su-49, if the new Yak-52Ms don’t last that long …)
– Su-25TMs (activity is still proceeding with this aircraft and it’s a far more credible light attack fighter than the Yak-130 ever will be)
Definitely by 2020, any upgraded aircraft (Su-24SM, MiG-31BM, Su-27SM/UBM, Su-25SM/UBM, MiG-29SMT/UBT) would either be already phased out or in the process of being phased out as they’re replaced by the growing Su-32/PAK-FA force.
VympelYou’re right. The F-35 isn’t going to be twice as cheap. Anyone who thinks it’ll cost less than $80 million a piece is clearly out of there mind- claiming a price as low as the typical ones being floated around is just out and out buying into corporate/military bullsh1t.
VympelJust shows how bad of shape the RuAF is in. They were sleeping in the first gulf war
???
I’m sorry, Russia fought the first Gulf War? Interesting.
and of course did lose Afganistan.
Irrelevant to the argument at hand. And the USA lost in Vietnam. I guess that means their airpower was ****. Oh wait, that’s wrong.
To hit the target in all weather. You might notice how Russia lost Afganistan
Uh huh, they didn’t have ‘all weather’ strike capability so they lost in Afghanistan. :rolleyes: I think there are much more important factors to consider. Most especially political. As in Vietnam, by purely military terms, the Afghans were slaughtered by the Soviets, just like the Vietnamese were slaughtered by the Americans. You do know the Soviet sponsored government in Afghanistan lasted until 1992, don’t you?
and will lose Chechnia.
Uh huh, that must be why the Chechens have been reduced to nothing but road side bombs for 2 years straight now and haven’t managed a single victory in 4 years.
VympelI’ll take the heavier fighter with the greater thrust, bigger radar and greater combat potential over the smaller one anyday.
VympelThey are beign designed with an eye for export… ie Su-27SMK.
12 Su-27s are being upgraded to Su-27SM standard next year- the Su-27 upgrade currently enjoys greater priority than the MiG-29SMT program, which seems to have stalled. It’s not surprising, the Su-27 is a much more capable multi-role platform.
VympelI posted this days ago. Noone replied.
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