RE: Same old anti – US Crap

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 16-06-02 AT 10:00 AM (GMT)]>Good points Phantom.
>
> Unfortunatly, you are up against a bunch of guys who live
>in a socialist dreamland and who have been raised on a
>steady diet of European complacency.

Socialist dreamland? Com’on, Europe is full of rightwing gov’ts. The only true leftist gov’t is the British :D. The conservatives are far more pro-European than the socialists in fact, for the simple reason that they want to create an isolated Europe.

>They are they same trolls who post threads which are simply intended to inspire anti-American rants. They make silly remarks about American politics, businesses, justice, social values, military
>history, foreign policy, etc. They are full of disingenous
>comments, twist facts, lie, quote out of context and use
>stupid examples to make weak arguments.

Than prove me wrong instead of saying that my arguments are weak. These are simply facts, the European economy is strong, and in some areas, better, like export. The fact that the Euro is not as strong as the dollar has nothing to do with economy itself. Simply because EU puts more efforts in export than import, it is better for us to have a currency which is lower than the dollar.

>Fortunately Phantom, they are pretty obvious. I agree that
>jealousy is part of it but I also believe that much of their
>attitude stems from the fact that they simply resent the US
>because it has been able and willing to help Europe in so
>many ways.

Ohh, should we start crying now? It were your grandfathers who helped us, for which we are gratefull. The generation now in charge has not done so much for us, really. BTW, we also helped you in your war on terror, why do so many people seem to forget this. Jealousy is an instinct, just as revenge, but what we are trying to do is rationally building up arguments. Otherwise we might as well close this forum.

It bothers them that they needed the help I
>suppose.

>A few threads back, this same bunch was ranting about about
>how the US starts all the wars, how it didn’t get involved
>in WWII until it was all over, how the US forces were all
>cowards, blah, blah, blah! This got started because someone
>on this forum made a lame attempt to use the US presidents
>visit to a US military cemetary, as an excuse to slag the
>US. What horsesh*t all that was.

>I get a particular charge when someone from one of the
>backwater nations where no one ever gets to vote (and where
>the leaders wear military uniforms), pipes up and agrees how
>bad the US is and how superior the dictatorship that he
>lives in is.

D’uh, most regimes which are supported by the US are far less democratic than the ones which criticize the US. You mean Pakistan or what?

>Pretty strange stuff but I think you are right in agreeing
>that most rational folks in Europe are adult enough to see
>through this crap.

Well, the old folks here indeed are pro-US, but the new generation, not only on the continent, but also on the British Isles are less pro-American. But we don’t burn flags here, we don’t attack the embassies, we don’t throw molotov-cocktails at the embassador, we only protest. Why can be so wrong about that, tell me …

>Regards

US applies two law-systems : one for US citizens and one for non_US residents. They support the UN when they bring Serbian mass-muderers to justice in Den Hague, but when it comes to their own citizens, suddenly, they change their course 180°’s.

I’ve been watching the Dutch news, and though the average Dutchmen doesn’t fear a US intervention, it doesn’t promote pro-US feelings either. Your image to the outside world has a lot to do with the image your are building up yourself. I’m not saying that the US is 100% responsible for what they’ve been trough the last few months (indeed also jealousy from poor countries who envy the US, but isn’t that a normal reaction???), but I’m sure that if they would be a bit more diplomatic, they wouldn’t have to suffer from so many anti-US feelings around the world.

And Bush who’s always repeating his nation is at war. The US IS NOT AT WAR!! But these kinds of expressions promote feelings on nationalism and unitity among the US citizens. The US was at war on 911, but not today. It’s strange, most nations who ARE actually at war, try to say the opposite.

RE: Music/Musician That You Can’t Stand?!?!

Well here’s my list :

Michael ‘I’m not gay’ stipe
Anastasia

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-06-02 AT 02:43 PM (GMT)]>Don’t even give me that crap about us “being the only ones
>to bring people to justice because we are too good.” We
>(along with England for the most part) are the only ones
>committed to ending some of the problems (namely problem
>countries like Iraq) or at least dealing with them.

England is not a country. The UK is, there’s a big difference. How about calling every American a Texan or a Californian?

>The United States and England are the only two nations with
>enough resolve to actually enforce the no-fly zones, or to
>really commit their forces to these things. You claim that
>Europeans are all just and proper, yet most of the EU’s
>nations have no resolve to fight for anything.

Please keep in mind that you are NOT fighting for world peace, not for democracy, but to keep the oil at low prices. Do you think the average Afghan is so much happier now? Sure, he has a right to vote, and indeed, the women don’t need to wear burqua’s anymore. But she lost her man, her brother … I’m not saying that’s the US’s fault, but there’s no such thing as a good war. War in essence is egocentric and selfish.

>And I’m a saying war is the answer? No. I’m referring to situations
>where force is necessary, such as Saddam. And Saddam goes
>back way before 9/11, so don’t through the ever popular,
>you’re just doing it for 9/11 in there.

Well, US could have stopped Saddam a long time ago, but that time, Saddam was an important ‘ally’ (remember the Tanker War?). Indeed, Saddam is an asshole, and if the US could manage to replace him, that would be a good thing. But they won’t. The fact that he terrorises his own people (a lot more than Americans or Europeans) won’t change that.

>As far as being a nice place to live, I assure you, the United States has many more great areas to live or vacation in than Europe. Our economy is stronger and the dollar, while you claim some of
your currency can compete with it, is still in the end
stronger.

I don’t want to start with who’s the strongest, at this moment US is the only superpower, but that could change very soon. I’m only saying that the average European has nothing to be jealous on, just like Americans don’t envy Europeans. Sure, you may think US is a better place to live in, I’ve been to both, and I both like them.
And talking about economics: well both are as important, the US puts more in import, the EU has more export. Both are equal, but as I said before, everything can change. China and India will also join the club of Economic superpowers, not only reserved to the US, Japan and the EU.

RE: Please be honest.

Yeah, Belgium has always been the place to solve problems. Germany and France at war? Hell no, we are not going to ruin our countries. Let’s have our fights in Belgium :-). And those little riots, well, today we all feel Belgian again (footbal). Monday, one we’ll lose from Brazil, these riots will start again }>.

Anyway, I support the dutch, don’t worry (though ethnically I’m more french).

RE: Caos in Spain

Same problems we have here in Belgium. It has to do with the liberalisation of the European market. Deutsche Telekom and Vodacom for example are also beginning services in Belgium, which means a lot of chaos between our own providers and the new ones. Same will happen with energy and electricity. Germany is buying electricty from France, and this has to go through Belgium. Last month, we could avoid a major malfunction in our own systems.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

In reaction on that law, I think that the European gov’ts should ask the Americans to withdraw their troops from the continent. Does France take measures against the US because they captured Massoud, said to be responsible for 911? No, and in fact, I would understand this from France, because Massoud is risking death penalty in the US.
The US is the big hypocrit here, they are the only ones good enough to bring people to justice.

RE: Same old anti – US Crap

Good old Phantom, always here to defend his homeland.

>Oooh, all this has convinced me to move to Europe, where
>everyone is always right and all the world is
>good…………

Yeah that’s true. Europe is full of hypocrits. Just look at the institutions of the EU. They are preaching on how they want to expend the EU, but at the same time, the rich memberstates (well actually all of them but naive Belgium) are blocking the expansion because they fear that it might have an influence on their way of life.

>This is ridiculous. You Europeans are supposed to be our
>allies. You are overly concerned about something that is not
>going to happen. Many of you are simply hypocrits. You will
>tell us how to live our lives, but then not fall under those
>same standards.

We are your allies, probably your only allies. US has more enemies than friends. What does Bush mean with the “civilised world”. US, Europe and maybe Japan, South Korea … who’s backing the US on the ground in Afghanistan? Israel, ROK, Japan?? No, Royal Marines, Italian carabinieri.

I’m sick of the anti-US feeling on this
>board. Well, I suppose I shouldn’t worry about you guys
>though because I’m lucky I’m an American and not a European.

It depends on what you mean with this. If you think your standards of living are higher, than I hope you can live the rest of your happy live with that impression, but it is not. On the other hand, if American is like waving flags and preaching democracy, well, than I have to admit you’re right. There are no Europeans waving the flags when something bad happens (only the queens 50th anniversary :-)). Not even with the chauvenistic French, unless it’s about footbal.

>The dislike of the U.S. from various parts of the world is
>due to one simple human emotion – jealousy. And don’t act
>like that is a load of crap and try to deny it because many
>of you know it is true. Without the United States, there
>would be many things (including first line military
>hardware) that your nations would be without.

The stories … the facts. Yeah, we wouldn’t be flying F-16’s, Mirages instead, but average Joe on the street really doesn’t care about that. Jealous on what? As I mentioned above, a lot EU-members are in the top ten of the worlds best nations to live in, together with Australia. US is not in that list, so I wouldn’t know why we would be so jealous. Our economy is almost as strong (look at BNP’s), we have a currency which can compete against the almighty dollar. We don’t have Bush, gee, are we lucky. Without the US, we would be still cave dwellers … Let me tell you something, without the Spaniards, the Britons and the French, you wouldn’t be anyware.

US is much like the Roman Empire. They were very proud, especially on their law-system (now democracy) and their military superiority. Indeed, the Romans did some great work, they were the ones who civilised the rest of Europe, but on the other hand, they were also very imperialistic. Still, they took over most from the Greeks (Europeans). They laughed at the weak Greeks, considered them to be weak, but at the same time, they were using the Greek sciences, phylosophy, poetry. If a Roman asked to a Greek why they weren’t imperialistic anymore, the Greek would answer, we were, one day. But such things are only temporary. New nations always make faults, just like Europeans did 150 years ago (even bigger mistakes). But now I think we can say we have more experience, and therefor it is our duty to judge the US, to prevent it’s own demise. History always repeats itself …

>You still have it because of the United States. As hard as it may be
>for some of you to believe, the United States is not the bad
>guy. Note, that this message only applies to those who have
>a dislike or hatred of the United States. I realize there
>are millions of well-meaning Europeans who don’t fit the
>descriptions I have laid down above. Those who I’m aiming
>this message at, you know who you are.

Did anyone of these guys say that? It’s just, how would you react if Holland signed a new law which says they might invade the US if something shitty happens. OK, I know US will not attempt to attack Holland, but the message is very clear: we break for nobody: NOT FOR OUR ALLIES, NOT FOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. Bravo, US!