RE: Have any of you met another forum member?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-08-02 AT 05:29 PM (GMT)]JJ! What are you doing ?!?! You’re killing me!
I’ve been building up my online persona of an evil, sarcastic, demonical and oppressive Mossad operative! You’re ruining everything!

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

> And what do these “excellent reasons” comprise?

For a start, one of the three members of the investigating team was former Red Cross president, Cornelio Sommargua, who refused to let Magen David Adom (Red Star of David) join the International Red Cross in the 12 years he headed the IRC. His objection was that the Star of David was a religious icon, which is rather amazing considering the Red Cross had no similar problem with the Red Crescent. Furthermore, when pressed on the issue, Sommargua compared the Star of David to the Swastika. This is a man we should have expected objectivity from?
There’s more. The investigation team’s mandate was solely to investigate Israeli actions alone. It was not to look into armed Palestinian presence in the camp, from which 23 suicide bombers emerged to blow up innocent civilians, nor the explosives strewn about the camp by the Palestinian fighters, nor the funding by the Palestinian Authority to local terrorists and assorted gunmen and murderers. With such a mandate, the outcome was decided before he work had even begun. But then everybody knew that already – of the three team members, not one had any military experience, yet these were the people supposed to judge IDF operations. How? Could they tell a house brought down by a tank shell from one detonated by a Palestinian charge? No, but that’s probably because the UN doesn’t really care.
Not good enough? Well, there’s also the little issue of who actually administers the Jenin refugee camp. This is of course the job of UNWRA – itself a UN agency, which has done nothing to oppose, expel or even report terrorists operating under its jurisdiction, has done nothing when bomb making laboratories were operated in schools it run, and whose employees’ union is controlled by a faction of the PLO!
What do you think Israel could expect from such a team, Viper? This was nothing short of a kangaroo court, a pure and simple ambush aimed at crucifying Israel. Now, I have no clue whether this passes for fair in Norway, but if it does, I wouldn’t be too surprised to hear more of certain notorious Norwegian leaders …

> Well then, what is your current position, politically speaking?

I’m sorry, but I’m not going to tell you. It’s not that I haven’t revealed my opinions to the forum before; it’s simply too much fun to see you trying to guess. }>

> Well, maybe the Israeli occupation and the consequent oppression of the
> Palestinian population resident on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is
> somehow related to it. Maybe you should try to get in touch with some
> Palestinians and conduct an inquiry related to this topic.

Ahh yes, the classic. Suicide bombings? Occupation. Widespread corruption? Occupation. Antisemitic incitement? Occupation. It’s all the Occupation, from start to finish. Well, Viper, you may very well be content with such a simple answer, but let’s look at some simple facts, shall we? Israel had been in control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip from 1967; yet not one single suicide bombing took place before the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993 and the subsequent handing over of all Palestinians cities and 95% of the population to Palestinian Authority control. In fact, before 1990 there was not one single roadblock between Israel and the territories! Such terrorism only begun when the end of the occupation was suddenly at hand. Of course, these are the same territories control by Egypt and Jordan before 1967, not by some Palestinian entity, yet there was no terrorism aimed at their ‘occupation’, was there? But I know what did exist before 1967 – the PLO, formed before Israel’s capture of the land, aimed at its complete destruction, and whose emblem still depicts the entirety of Israel, not only the disputed West Bank and Gaza Strip. Then there’s also the issue of the second Camp David summit. Yasser Arafat rejects Israeli offers out of hand, declines to continue any peaceful negotiations, opting for was instead, and yet continues to claim to be fighting against Israeli aggression and Israeli occupation. His actions and his failure to fight terrorism have brought about the end of three liberal Israeli governments (Rabin, Peres, Barak) and brought to power both Sharon and Netantyahu. For all intents and purposes, Arafat is not fighting against occupation, he’s perpetuating it!
Viper, do you really think that the Israeli public wishes to continue controlling millions of Palestinians, that we have nothing better to do than stay in the cesspool known as the Gaza Strip, or that our presence in the West Bank is for fun? The occupation could have been over ages ago, repeated polling of the Israeli public has shown a clear majority willing to withdraw, dismantle the settlements and to witness the formation of a Palestinian state. This has remained true even in these hard times. But this is not good enough for the current leadership of the PA. Their demands exceed the formation of a Palestinian state in those territories captured in 1967. They demand, among other things, a return of all Palestinian refugees to Israel proper – in effect bringing about the destruction of the state of Israel. This is what we’re fighting for – a negotiated agreement likely to bring an end to the conflict, rather than a unilateral move which would do nothing but bring the fighting closer to our homes. For should Israel withdraw unilaterally, terrorism will not stop, much like a unilateral move did nothing to dissipate tensions along our border with Lebanon. Terrorism would have been proven effective, more effective than negotiations, and the war would resume, until Israel is forced to accept conditions amounting to suicide.
Now, I’m sure you consider yourself a reasonable man, one who wishes to see nothing but peace finally arriving in the Middle East. If Europe thinks this can be advanced through the leadership of Yasser Arafat and his coven of terrorist leaders and corrupt bureaucrats, then Europe is entitled to its opinion. But it’s not me you’re disappointing – it’s the millions of Palestinians who deserve better than both the occupation and the tyranny of a Palestinian Authority content with sacrificing its youth on the romantic and unnecessary alter of fighting ‘occupation’.
For your amusement, Viper, I have attached a picture depicting the emblem of the Palestinian Ministry of Industry. Open an atlas, you’ll see that the minister doesn’t seem content with West Bank and Gaza Strip industry, apparently he has the entirety of Israel under the his jurisdiction …

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

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RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 06-08-02 AT 06:33 PM (GMT)]Phantom, thanks for the support, but there’s really no need to get so passionate about it. We’ve been through all this before, and we’ll be through it countless time in the future. Like many newcomers, Viper comes here with opinions he has formed one way or another, and which have probably never been seriously challenged. He doesn’t know he’s bursting into a open door, beyond which are people which are very likely to disagree with him on a whole lot of issues. I couldn’t ignore him even if I wanted to 😀

> By the way, isn’t the so- called head figure of Hamas a guy named
> Yatta or something? An old man with distinguished by a white beard
> and a squeeky voice?

You’re refering to Ahmed Yassin, he’s the spiritual head of the organization. Shehadeh was the founder of the Iz-Adim-El-Kassam, the military wing of the Hamas which is resposible for attacks on Israelis.

> I live in a country of which an Israeli politician (I believe it
> was your Minister of Foreign Affairs) once referred to as “the
> country who gave us Quisling.” That statement made me upset.

That made you upset? You should come live here for a while, we take a whole lot worse, including from certain Scandinavian countries.

> As far I as I know, no UN representative has ever been allowed to
> investigate the ruins of Jenin.

UN officials have repeatedly come and gone, the UN even has a permanent presence in Jenin in the form of UNWRA which administers the local refugee camp. Israel objected to the formation of an official investigating commitee and for excellent reasons too.

> The IDF would probably attempt to conceal anything that could
> compromise their credibility and their reputation, just as any
> other military organisation, including NATO. The thing about NATO
> is that they admit their mistakes through public statements, even
> the serious ones.

Had you bothered to check, you would have seen the IDF does this as well.

> But Prime Minister Ariel Sharon simply had to refer to the Paveway
> mistake a grand “success,” didn’t he? Even despite the tragic
> outcome.

The IDF is the Israeli military and Ariel Sharon is the Prime Minister. They’re not one and the same, attributing one’s comments to the other is simply a mistake. Besides, while expressing he’s appreciation to the IDF for the achievement of locating a man who’s been evading Israeli intelligence for years, he also expressed regret over the loss of civilian life. His crime is being stupidly insensitive, nothing more.

> I have already assumed that you’re not one of those brilliant young
> liberal Israelis. Are you in direct support of the right- wing of
> the Likud party?

Good one, Viper, you couldn’t be farther off mark.

> This one’s from Monthy Python, isn’t it? Ingenious.

From the “No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!” sketch.

> My criticism is aimed at those who govern the state of Israel, and
> the IDFAF, for some of the operations carried out against
> Palestinian non- terrorist targets (security HQs, prisons confining
> terrorist suspects, police stations etc, -> essential outfits
> required in order to counter terrorist activity).

Viper, you fail to understand some of the most fundamental facts about the conflict going on. It is not only terrorist organizations carrying out these strikes, but the same security organizations which are supposed to fight them! Bombed security HQs were busy manufacturing the same weapons they were supposed to apprehend. Prisons practically had revolving doors where the terrorists could come and go as they will. This reached such an absurd state, that at one time a Palestinian militant was spotted in a protest organized to press for his own release !!! It’s very convinient to think the Palestinian Authority is trying to fight terrorism, when all the facts reveal otherwise. You mention the Al-Aqsa Brigade yourself. That is not a Palestinian opposition group such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad. That group is a part of the Fatah, whose founder and president is none other that Yasser Arafat. Plus, since you’ve got it all figured out, would you please be so kind as to explain why for eight years following the signing of the Oslo accords, the Palestinian Authority, now in control of territories given by Israel and over 95% of the Palestinian population, did practically nothing about ongoing attacks originating from these same territories? There were no police bombings then, no prison was destroyed, not one single incusrion into Palestinian territory. I would very much like your take on the matter.
On the other hand, though I wholely disagree about certain opinions expressed as to the cause and instigators of the current violence, I would stop at the above. It doesn’t really belong in this thread, if you wish, start another, though we’ve discussed in a length before.

> IDFAF make attempts regardless of the location and probability of
> causing collateral damage.

You have no clue what you’re talking about. You’re taking one incident you know close to nothing about and making it an example of all others. To date, in two years of fighting, strikes by IDF/AF jets have cost less lifes than NATO’s single strike on Korisa which killed 79. This incident which you have made an example of, was in fact the deadliest IDF/AF strike of the entire Intifada.

> As I explained in my last post, the Israeli public and the
> remainder of the world is likely to be held fools by the IDFAF
> regarding some actions they intend to conceal for already known
> purposes (i. e. everything that occurred during Op Defensive
> Shield, especially in the city of Jenin).

Jenin? Don’t make me laugh. The blatantly biased European media spread libelous lies without a shred of evidence, this has been revealed to see to the entire world by none other than the UN, and then you blame the IDF of making fools of the Israeli public and the world? For god’s sake Viper, how about a little humility?

> Were you part of the assault team sent into Jenin? If not, you
> probably possess equally as little well- founded knowledge of the
> occurrences there as everyone else (except IDFAF elements directly
> involved with the operation).

You’re quite right, Viper, I was certainly not at Jenin. But if you think for a moment that that makes me no more informed than you than you, then are quite mistaken. I have spoken to people who have been there, seen countless articles, photographs, editorials and accounts (by both sides) of the incident as to have far more clue about the things I seak about. I have seen what every spectrum of the local political landscape had to say about the matter, I have seen the propaganda and I have seen the weapons and tactics in use. My opinion is undoubtedly biased, but I can speak with the certainly of one who has more than enough sources to back up his claims. I will not assume to have knowledge anywhere like yours about events in Norway, don’t presume you know near as much as I do about what going on here. If you feel I am mistaken about Jenin, go ahead, present your proof.

> My verbal offensive is aimed at the current Israeli government and
> the IDFAF

You keep refering to IDF/AF in places where you’re obviously talking about the IDF. That alone makes me a bit skeptical as to whether you’re as well informed as you think you are.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-08-02 AT 10:55 PM (GMT)]> Unlike the IAF, NATO strike assets were never employed against
> individuals hiding among civilians.

So? NATO strikes were often carried out against targets far less deadly than a man such as Salah Shehadeh, resposbile for hundreds of deaths, and located in just the same civilian sorroundings. The fact that NATO did not go after specific persons makes absolutely zero difference as to the morality of these operations. Striking media centers is justified while targetting the head of a murderous terrorist orgazation isn’t?

> Tasks that involve apprehension
> or assassination of individuals are normally assigned to special
> units operating on the ground. The risc of causing collateral
> damage is too extensive when employing air power against such
> targets.

Quite correct, and that is the way things are usually done here as well. But, alas, the man has been evading us for years, and was tracked to a certain point at a certain time. As I mentioned, a ground operation would have been far costlier for BOTH Israelis AND Palestinians, and would have most probably ended in failure. A decision was made that turned out to be wrong. Were all NATO operations in Kosovo right? Hardly.

> And what do you mean by “here” and “we?” Do you live somewhere in
> the Levant?

I live in Israel, I thought that was obvious enough. Where do you live, Viper? The profile doesn’t mention that.

> Why do some IDF officers allege that there were no civilians
> present in the areas affected during “Operation Human Shield” (or
> whatever you refer to the IDF operation as), while other IDF
> officers reported terrible incidents occurring in Jenin during and
> after the operation?

No IDF officer ever claimed that there were no civilians in areas affected in “Defensive Shield”, nor did anyone claim that no civilians were harmed in the operation. But in order for me to respond to your allegations, I would really have to see more specific information than third-party accounts of what Israeli soldiers supposedly said. You may very well have heard such words uttered by some Israeli soldier, but not each and every soldier is the authority on why the IDF conducts its operations as it does. Again, I can hardly respond to allegations I have no knowledge about.
Let me say this though : Jenin was a place where hundreds of well armed and well prepared militants (by their own accounts, previously posted on this forum) had been planning and carrying out their activities with complete impunity. To suggest, as Tomel did, that IDF operations were somehow deliberately aimed at the civlian population, is simply not true.

> So, the IDF relies on visual indications from external viewpoints
> while operating in areas heavily surrounded by large obstacles?
> Probable tactic employed by IDF during ground ops: “Ignore, shoot, > perceive.”

I’m glad you admit your actual knowledge of IDF tactics is practically nonexistant. Only one of us is actually a reserve IDF officer, and I’m pretty sure that’s me. Were the 23 Israeli soldiers killed by fighting in Jenin under such orders, they might have actually survived the battle. Were the IDF/AF so different from NATO, immoral versus elightened, as you try to paint it, those soldiers would had never gone in, leaving the job to the air force. IDF forces fought house to house for twelve days, and yet despite Palestinian claims to the contrary there took place no massive killing of Palestinian civlians. The UN itself admitted as much in its recently published report on the fighting in the city. In fact, more Israeli soldiers than Palestinian non-cobatants died in the city.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-08-02 AT 08:43 PM (GMT)]> What retarded operations planner would select a 2000 lbs. Paveway
> bomb to be employed for the purpose of eliminating a single
> individual located within a block full of civics

Please, neither you nor I know what really went on in IDF/AF mission planning. Hindsight is always 20/20, especially from thousands of miles away. [link:http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=190550&contrassID=2… says it thought Gaza raid would not kill civilians]
Besides, I am curious: after all, it was you who wrote : “many of the military targets hit by NATO during Operation Allied Force were placed in the midst of or in the close vicinity of densely populated areas”. So tell me, when civilians in Kosovo die it is despite NATO efforts to the contrary, yet when they die here it is precisely because we do not make such efforts? I may indeed admire the IDF/AF, but not to such an extent that their mistakes are somehow justified while others’ are not.

> You imply that Israeli forces have never targeted civilians
> deliberately.

Indeed? Where?

> What about the massacres of Shabra and Shatila?

A bad example, you could do much better. The Sabra and Shatila massacres were not carried out by Israeli soldiers, but rather by the Lebanese Phalanges – that is, Christian Arabs. Certain Israelis were indeed held resposible, but not because of IDF conduct but rather because of Israel’s support of the Phalangists and for failing to comprehend or ignoring the dangers of allowing the Phalangists to enter the two camps a mere two days after the assassination of Bachir Gemayel, Lebanon’s Maronite Christian president.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-08-02 AT 04:54 PM (GMT)]> The TRUTH is, the general news media fails to recognize propaganda
> when it sees it. So do you.

welcome to the forum, Viper01.

Propaganda? Possibly, I will admit that. I wish I had your certainty about what the TRUTH is. But you will have to do better than quoting AFM. An excellent magazine but hardly the best source for such data.
Human Rights Watch lists 90 certified [link:http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/nato/Natbm200-02.htm#P440_116432|Incidents Involving Civilian Deaths in Operation Allied Force ] plus others which it is not certain of. Amnesty International details a number of these at [link:web.amnesty.org/802568F7005C4453/0/6FD1044BD4347EF1802569000069308C?Open&Highlight=2,nato|Amnesty International Concerns Relating to NATO Bombings]. The numbers quoted by the Guardian, and posted by me, may indeed be wrong. But this does not really have an effect on the subject at hand, does it? The fact that such events did take place, does.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

A318

Another Farnborough pic of the 318

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

Attachments:

RE: there you go again…

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-07-02 AT 07:58 PM (GMT)]Since you seem intent on teaching me history, Vortex, let me bring you up to date on certain facts: Despite your claims, US aid to Israel did not begin following the Israeli-Egyptian peace accords but well before. The US stance on the matters at hand was pretty much formulated in the late 1960s. What the peace accords saw was the commencement of US aid to Egypt.

“real friends” in international politics is a romatic notion that does not exist. Everything is about interests. Furthermore, Israel may not have “real friends”, but to compare Europe to Russia, to the Far East, to the Arab world is oversimplification of a whopping magnitude. You know, I often hear critisicm of Israel’s apparent “everyone’s against us” attitude, of its reluctance to accept any criticism on the ground that it is probably hatred. You’re the first one to actually claim it’s true! If you think there’s support in Europe or the US (with assistance or without) for the elimination of Israel, then you’re sadly mistaken.

But let’s be frank, Vortex, what you obviously expect is our complete surrender to American interests, you expect us to grovel at your feet at unending gratitude for your benevolant charity.
Forget it, we get your support because its fits your interest, and aid will be cut when it ceases to fit any such interest. It’s this aid that ensure that Israeli airlines only fly Boeing, that every export deal, whether with American components or not, has to be approved in Washington, or that the US can go and offer Taiwan the blueprints to Israeli submarines without consulting our government first. You think that Israel cannot survive without US aid? Possibly, I don’t know. But you know what? If American aid means American domination, then screw us, I really, really, from the bottom of my heart, do not care. We are deeply indebted to the US for its aid over the years, but don’t mistake gratitude with servitude. You can patronize me with your talk of “young Isreali self-illusion” and my “too bad” atitude but don’t be surprised to turn around and see the Europeans bashing you for your arrogance. Will Israel exist forever? probably not, but nor will the US – don’t expect me to worship it as if it’s some god bestowing us with its goodwill.

And oh, BTW, I’d be fascinated to hear why it is that you think Asian countries think poorly of Jews, not just Israel. Please be so kind as to explain what action on the part of the Jews made that somehow justifiable. That is what you’ve suggested, isn’t it?

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “