skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
Well, first of all, the Sinai is about ten times larger than the West Bank, so it really depends on what your definition of ‘major’ is.
The precedent I was refering to was that a hawkish government, much like Sharon’s, evacuated settlements against the expectations of many in Israel and around the world. That alone should be enough to give people an idea that alienating an elected Israeli government, even if its politics are not to your liking, can actually be counterproductive to the pursuit of peace.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
Well, first of all, the Sinai is about ten times larger than the West Bank, so it really depends on what your definition of ‘major’ is.
The precedent I was refering to was that a hawkish government, much like Sharon’s, evacuated settlements against the expectations of many in Israel and around the world. That alone should be enough to give people an idea that alienating an elected Israeli government, even if its politics are not to your liking, can actually be counterproductive to the pursuit of peace.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
I’m not so sure I would agree that the Sinai evacuations were token. Those settlements were indeed tiny, especially comapred to the West Bank ones, but an important precendent was set. Bear in mind that this was not carried out by a left-wing government, by by Begin’s right wing Likud government, which was something no one had really expected. This probably means practically nothing to you, but it is important in the local context.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
I’m not so sure I would agree that the Sinai evacuations were token. Those settlements were indeed tiny, especially comapred to the West Bank ones, but an important precendent was set. Bear in mind that this was not carried out by a left-wing government, by by Begin’s right wing Likud government, which was something no one had really expected. This probably means practically nothing to you, but it is important in the local context.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: there you go again…
> If this impartiallity becomes thinking twice everytime we back
> Israel, he’ll definately rethink his “too bad” attitude.
‘Too bad’ was not meant to suggest impartiality, it was meant to suggest acceptance. As I said, I value US friendship and aid, but sovereignty goes both ways. If the price of ours is cessation of US aid, then so be it. It would be painful, I do not wish to see it happen, but we are entitled to our own decisions, as Americans are to theirs.
> These things are in general, so no need to go into details, what’s
> important is that if that’s true shouldn’t Israel be more than
> willing to show continuous initiatives to hear out what such an
> offer is?
But that’s the whole point. Israel never officially accepted nor rejected the offer for the mere reason that it was never presented to Israel. It was presented to the various Arab governments, to Europe and the US, but to this point the Saudis have rejected every single offer of actually meeting with representatives of the Israeli government.
> didn’t you just say the more serious threat is the outside enemy?
Indeed, but you were talking about military threats, about why we need American weaponry. But there are other threats as well, and the existence of one does not mean we can ignore another. If you change your mind about going into details, we can.
> get your timeline correct, that promise was after the “delay”
> you’ve mentioned
Don’t teach me history, I know more than enough. I was talking about the emergency aid during the Yom Kippur war. You suggested the USA always comes to Israel’s rescue as quickly as possible. I showed you this was not necessarily correct. This has nothing to do with past and present military aid.
> For this example, you should send in Commandos just to take him out
> even if it’s going to cost dozens of soldiers life just because the
> possibility of a collatoral damage is way too high.
That’s a very noble stance, but one which practically no nation on earth exercises, not even the USA. Events in Afghanistan have shown that. Bin Laden’s deputy was killed by an LGB that also killed a hundred others. Besides, when possible Israel indeed tries to capture such men, but in the middle of hostile city, such an operation would have probably cost more Israeli AND Palestinian lives, as well probably ended in failure, the man fleeing long before they’d arrived. You brought up Mogadishu. An excellent example, had US forces known what they were going to be up against, things would have been done very differently.
> now you have a situation where dozens of new misguided Palestinian
> teens will more than willing to become suicide bombers.
We already had that before, but now their bombs are less likely to be as sophisticated and therefore less deadly, the money needed to fund these operations sparser, and the time spent on hiding instead of plotting much longer. Wars against terrorism are not won overnight, they’re wars of attrition.
> soldiers are more than willing to die for their country, their
> family and love ones as long as their mission is true to such and
> the leadership used them wisely and honorably. They are more than
> willing to go in and take this guy out
Indeed, and Israeli special forces have shown that time and again. But no one, not military nor civilian, will accept soldiers on a suicide mission that would most likely end in failure. Civilian deaths should indeed be avoided, but soldiers’ lives are not expendable either.
> You need friends, and sometimes money and weapons won’t buy you any.
Obviously. No disagreement there.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: there you go again…
> If this impartiallity becomes thinking twice everytime we back
> Israel, he’ll definately rethink his “too bad” attitude.
‘Too bad’ was not meant to suggest impartiality, it was meant to suggest acceptance. As I said, I value US friendship and aid, but sovereignty goes both ways. If the price of ours is cessation of US aid, then so be it. It would be painful, I do not wish to see it happen, but we are entitled to our own decisions, as Americans are to theirs.
> These things are in general, so no need to go into details, what’s
> important is that if that’s true shouldn’t Israel be more than
> willing to show continuous initiatives to hear out what such an
> offer is?
But that’s the whole point. Israel never officially accepted nor rejected the offer for the mere reason that it was never presented to Israel. It was presented to the various Arab governments, to Europe and the US, but to this point the Saudis have rejected every single offer of actually meeting with representatives of the Israeli government.
> didn’t you just say the more serious threat is the outside enemy?
Indeed, but you were talking about military threats, about why we need American weaponry. But there are other threats as well, and the existence of one does not mean we can ignore another. If you change your mind about going into details, we can.
> get your timeline correct, that promise was after the “delay”
> you’ve mentioned
Don’t teach me history, I know more than enough. I was talking about the emergency aid during the Yom Kippur war. You suggested the USA always comes to Israel’s rescue as quickly as possible. I showed you this was not necessarily correct. This has nothing to do with past and present military aid.
> For this example, you should send in Commandos just to take him out
> even if it’s going to cost dozens of soldiers life just because the
> possibility of a collatoral damage is way too high.
That’s a very noble stance, but one which practically no nation on earth exercises, not even the USA. Events in Afghanistan have shown that. Bin Laden’s deputy was killed by an LGB that also killed a hundred others. Besides, when possible Israel indeed tries to capture such men, but in the middle of hostile city, such an operation would have probably cost more Israeli AND Palestinian lives, as well probably ended in failure, the man fleeing long before they’d arrived. You brought up Mogadishu. An excellent example, had US forces known what they were going to be up against, things would have been done very differently.
> now you have a situation where dozens of new misguided Palestinian
> teens will more than willing to become suicide bombers.
We already had that before, but now their bombs are less likely to be as sophisticated and therefore less deadly, the money needed to fund these operations sparser, and the time spent on hiding instead of plotting much longer. Wars against terrorism are not won overnight, they’re wars of attrition.
> soldiers are more than willing to die for their country, their
> family and love ones as long as their mission is true to such and
> the leadership used them wisely and honorably. They are more than
> willing to go in and take this guy out
Indeed, and Israeli special forces have shown that time and again. But no one, not military nor civilian, will accept soldiers on a suicide mission that would most likely end in failure. Civilian deaths should indeed be avoided, but soldiers’ lives are not expendable either.
> You need friends, and sometimes money and weapons won’t buy you any.
Obviously. No disagreement there.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-07-02 AT 07:58 PM (GMT)]”Murderous tendencies”, Mongu? I’ll be sure to have a good laugh about that the next time I hear about the next EU installment to Yasser Arafat, the man who never had anything to do with exploding passenger jets and school buses.
Besides, you can really spare me the superficial pseudo-psychology. You can pin the entire Middle East woes on Ariel Sharon’s shoulders, but they were here long before he was, and they’ll be here long after he’s gone. I don’t like the man, I didn’t vote for him, but the fact that there exists incessant European incitement against the man is more telling about Europe than it is about us. Do you know what the stupid thing is? In your hatred of him, you fail to comprehend certain basic truths, truths that could actually be quite conducive towards peace in the Middle East. Ariel Sharon was the first and only man to date to demolish Israeli settlements (those in the Sinai, following peace with Egypt), as well as the first right wing Israeli prime minister to talk directly about the formation of an independent Palestinian state. For all his failings, he is a man that you can actually ‘do business’ with, which can actually ‘deliver the goods’. Your blind hatred of him, fuelled by some demonic imagery of the man, is something you might one day come to regret. It is certainly not doing any good right now, it’s just another reason for us to ignore whatever influence Europe is trying to exercise.
Finally, despite your attempts at blaming some anonymous American generals for NATO’s actions in the Balkans, your leaders are just as responsible as mine. In fact, considering that the NATO bombing campaign lasted for some time, with the results made known time and again, I would certainly not go about bringing up ‘murderous tendencies’. It would seem everyone has them.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-07-02 AT 07:58 PM (GMT)]”Murderous tendencies”, Mongu? I’ll be sure to have a good laugh about that the next time I hear about the next EU installment to Yasser Arafat, the man who never had anything to do with exploding passenger jets and school buses.
Besides, you can really spare me the superficial pseudo-psychology. You can pin the entire Middle East woes on Ariel Sharon’s shoulders, but they were here long before he was, and they’ll be here long after he’s gone. I don’t like the man, I didn’t vote for him, but the fact that there exists incessant European incitement against the man is more telling about Europe than it is about us. Do you know what the stupid thing is? In your hatred of him, you fail to comprehend certain basic truths, truths that could actually be quite conducive towards peace in the Middle East. Ariel Sharon was the first and only man to date to demolish Israeli settlements (those in the Sinai, following peace with Egypt), as well as the first right wing Israeli prime minister to talk directly about the formation of an independent Palestinian state. For all his failings, he is a man that you can actually ‘do business’ with, which can actually ‘deliver the goods’. Your blind hatred of him, fuelled by some demonic imagery of the man, is something you might one day come to regret. It is certainly not doing any good right now, it’s just another reason for us to ignore whatever influence Europe is trying to exercise.
Finally, despite your attempts at blaming some anonymous American generals for NATO’s actions in the Balkans, your leaders are just as responsible as mine. In fact, considering that the NATO bombing campaign lasted for some time, with the results made known time and again, I would certainly not go about bringing up ‘murderous tendencies’. It would seem everyone has them.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
Tomel, it seems like the people you are decribing are not opponents of the current Israeli government, but rather anti-Zionists, opposed to the very existance of the state of Israel. To these, Sharon’s actions are mere excuses, no action on the part of any Israeli government, short of the liquidation of Israel, is sufficiently appeasing. Post the link, it would be interesting to see.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
Tomel, it seems like the people you are decribing are not opponents of the current Israeli government, but rather anti-Zionists, opposed to the very existance of the state of Israel. To these, Sharon’s actions are mere excuses, no action on the part of any Israeli government, short of the liquidation of Israel, is sufficiently appeasing. Post the link, it would be interesting to see.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
Mongu, the last time I checked Britain, the US and all other NATO members were western democracies where the military comes under government oversight and control, not some military-backed banana republics. You cannot shift the blame onto “muderous generals”, NATO is not some indepedant entity separate from the political establishments behind it.
> But the Israeli government was directly elected by popular mandate
> to carry out murder.
Somehow I don’t recall seeing that bit in our last election campaign, I must have missed it … But seriously, the above statement is utter demagogy. The current government of Israel is elected the same way as any government in any democracy is. It is elected by popular mandate to run the country, in all its affairs.
Obviously you’d like to tell us which leaders to elect and what governments to chose. I mean, if we abandom the concept of government control of the military, we might as well dismiss such notions as sovereignty as well.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
Mongu, the last time I checked Britain, the US and all other NATO members were western democracies where the military comes under government oversight and control, not some military-backed banana republics. You cannot shift the blame onto “muderous generals”, NATO is not some indepedant entity separate from the political establishments behind it.
> But the Israeli government was directly elected by popular mandate
> to carry out murder.
Somehow I don’t recall seeing that bit in our last election campaign, I must have missed it … But seriously, the above statement is utter demagogy. The current government of Israel is elected the same way as any government in any democracy is. It is elected by popular mandate to run the country, in all its affairs.
Obviously you’d like to tell us which leaders to elect and what governments to chose. I mean, if we abandom the concept of government control of the military, we might as well dismiss such notions as sovereignty as well.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
> Imagine if Britain had dropped a Paveway onto a building in
> Belfast – just because Gerry Adams was there, or some other IRA
> leader. Basically, this would never happen. We would rather risk
> losing a few men with an armed assault than resort to this.
I don’t have to imagine. I’ve got the British press to help me:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3895100,00.html
“Last week, 14 members of the same Iraqi family were reportedly killed when their house was hit by a missile. There were no military installations nearby. “
“A group of prominent international lawyers argue that if the recent indictment of Slobodan Milosevic is to be credible, not merely victor’s justice, then the evidence against all prima facie war criminals should be heard. They have prepared a compelling indictment of Nato’s leaders, including Blair, Robertson and Cook. That is the news. “
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3866125,00.html
“Eighteen hospitals and clinics and at least 200 nurseries, schools, colleges and students’ dormitories have been destroyed or damaged, together with housing estates, hotels, libraries, youth centres, theatres, museums, churches and 14th-century monasteries on the World Heritage list. Farms have been bombed, their crops set on fire. As Friday’s bombing of the Kosovo town of Korisa shows, there is no discrimination between Serbs and those being ‘saved’. Every day, three times more civilians are killed by Nato than the daily estimate of deaths of Kosovans in the months prior to the bombing.”
Does this justify what Israel did? No, it doesn’t. But I don’t asume moral high ground where there is none. You may not think us “civilized”, Mongu, but take a good look in the mirror.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
> Imagine if Britain had dropped a Paveway onto a building in
> Belfast – just because Gerry Adams was there, or some other IRA
> leader. Basically, this would never happen. We would rather risk
> losing a few men with an armed assault than resort to this.
I don’t have to imagine. I’ve got the British press to help me:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3895100,00.html
“Last week, 14 members of the same Iraqi family were reportedly killed when their house was hit by a missile. There were no military installations nearby. “
“A group of prominent international lawyers argue that if the recent indictment of Slobodan Milosevic is to be credible, not merely victor’s justice, then the evidence against all prima facie war criminals should be heard. They have prepared a compelling indictment of Nato’s leaders, including Blair, Robertson and Cook. That is the news. “
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3866125,00.html
“Eighteen hospitals and clinics and at least 200 nurseries, schools, colleges and students’ dormitories have been destroyed or damaged, together with housing estates, hotels, libraries, youth centres, theatres, museums, churches and 14th-century monasteries on the World Heritage list. Farms have been bombed, their crops set on fire. As Friday’s bombing of the Kosovo town of Korisa shows, there is no discrimination between Serbs and those being ‘saved’. Every day, three times more civilians are killed by Nato than the daily estimate of deaths of Kosovans in the months prior to the bombing.”
Does this justify what Israel did? No, it doesn’t. But I don’t asume moral high ground where there is none. You may not think us “civilized”, Mongu, but take a good look in the mirror.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-07-02 AT 07:19 AM (GMT)]> It’s a Israeli Defense Farce
Oh my, someone’s really pissed off if he sees the need to take such poor shots at the IDF. Of course, anyone can play that game. Captured Bin Laden yet, Vortex?
But I err, I certainly don’t think of the US or its armed forces so poorly and I can fully appreceiate the difficulties they encounter fighting their war. Too bad some people can’t stand certain simple truths and see the need to lash out. Was I comment about Kosovo unjustified? I don’t think so.
But Vortex did bring up certain interesting points:
> It seems to me that given that more Israeli civilians die recently
> than soldiers, by far more, the Israeli Defense Force is nothing
> more than to let the Isreali civilians defending them.
If I didn’t know any better, I’d think it was the IDF killing all those civilians! Unfortunately, Israeli civilians are the target of choice for our opponents, so yes, more civilians than soldiers are dying. Nor is there any shame in attempting to save the lives of your soldiers, as the Americans or Europeans on this forum know all too well.
> Don’t give excuses like how this “war” is different, because
> clearly the IDF have wasted tax payer’s hard earn money to buy
> weapons that don’t even apply to the real needs of Israeli security
The real needs of Israel’s security are first and foremost the survival of the nation before an assault by thousands of Syrian, Egyptian and Iraqi tanks that may converge on our borders, the thousands of aircraft that may try to attack us and the thousands of balistic missiles that may one day land in our towns and cities.
> think the US won’t help you in the event of a major war? So, why
> this top heaviness in weapons?
The US will help us, yes, but not by fighting for us, nor will its assistance arrive by some magic teleportation. In 1973 American assistance begun a full week after the launch of the war and 4 days after the Soviets begun airlifting supplies to the Arabs. We had to fight off the Syrians on the Golan and halt Egypt in the Sinai on our own devices.
> If someone dare to attack Israeli from the outside, you can sure
> bet the US military will be there to hammer down the enemy.
Please, I love the US and value its friendship, but that’s simply not true. The US has never intervened militarily in any of our wars, nor do we expect it to. The only time it did anything close was in Iraq, and that was only because it feared Israeli retaliation against Iraqi Scuds might break up the coalition.
> And if someone is crazy enough to do it, they’ll do it irregardless
> of how many nukes you have.
It’s not the little crazies we’re afraid of, it’s the big ones! Saddam Hussein, Iran’s ruling clergy … you know, the good guys!
> It seems to me that Israelis only care about themselves and that
> with the way the US is sticking out for Israelis we don’t even get
> a consideration from Israel the implications of your actions on our
> (US) civilian’s well being.
Oh please, spare me the preaching. We care for ourselves just as you do for yourselves. The real threat to Israel does not lie in Syria’s outdated MiG-29s or few SU-27s but in Egyptian F-16s, Apaches, Harpoons and M1A1s, in Saudi E-3s and F-15s, etc. etc. Every nation does what it has to according to its own interests. I don’t expect any less from the US, nor will I go about making such poor demagogic proclamations such as “they care only for themselves”. We don’t.
If you think 9/11 is because of us, too bad. If you wish to dump the incident on our laps, go ahead, get in line. Didn’t you know we’re alreay responsible for all the Middle East’s woes? Bin Laden has never struck at Israel, Palestinian members of his group are almost unheard of, but keep telling yourself it’s all our fault.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
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