skytheRE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 27-07-02 AT 07:19 AM (GMT)]> It’s a Israeli Defense Farce
Oh my, someone’s really pissed off if he sees the need to take such poor shots at the IDF. Of course, anyone can play that game. Captured Bin Laden yet, Vortex?
But I err, I certainly don’t think of the US or its armed forces so poorly and I can fully appreceiate the difficulties they encounter fighting their war. Too bad some people can’t stand certain simple truths and see the need to lash out. Was I comment about Kosovo unjustified? I don’t think so.
But Vortex did bring up certain interesting points:
> It seems to me that given that more Israeli civilians die recently
> than soldiers, by far more, the Israeli Defense Force is nothing
> more than to let the Isreali civilians defending them.
If I didn’t know any better, I’d think it was the IDF killing all those civilians! Unfortunately, Israeli civilians are the target of choice for our opponents, so yes, more civilians than soldiers are dying. Nor is there any shame in attempting to save the lives of your soldiers, as the Americans or Europeans on this forum know all too well.
> Don’t give excuses like how this “war” is different, because
> clearly the IDF have wasted tax payer’s hard earn money to buy
> weapons that don’t even apply to the real needs of Israeli security
The real needs of Israel’s security are first and foremost the survival of the nation before an assault by thousands of Syrian, Egyptian and Iraqi tanks that may converge on our borders, the thousands of aircraft that may try to attack us and the thousands of balistic missiles that may one day land in our towns and cities.
> think the US won’t help you in the event of a major war? So, why
> this top heaviness in weapons?
The US will help us, yes, but not by fighting for us, nor will its assistance arrive by some magic teleportation. In 1973 American assistance begun a full week after the launch of the war and 4 days after the Soviets begun airlifting supplies to the Arabs. We had to fight off the Syrians on the Golan and halt Egypt in the Sinai on our own devices.
> If someone dare to attack Israeli from the outside, you can sure
> bet the US military will be there to hammer down the enemy.
Please, I love the US and value its friendship, but that’s simply not true. The US has never intervened militarily in any of our wars, nor do we expect it to. The only time it did anything close was in Iraq, and that was only because it feared Israeli retaliation against Iraqi Scuds might break up the coalition.
> And if someone is crazy enough to do it, they’ll do it irregardless
> of how many nukes you have.
It’s not the little crazies we’re afraid of, it’s the big ones! Saddam Hussein, Iran’s ruling clergy … you know, the good guys!
> It seems to me that Israelis only care about themselves and that
> with the way the US is sticking out for Israelis we don’t even get
> a consideration from Israel the implications of your actions on our
> (US) civilian’s well being.
Oh please, spare me the preaching. We care for ourselves just as you do for yourselves. The real threat to Israel does not lie in Syria’s outdated MiG-29s or few SU-27s but in Egyptian F-16s, Apaches, Harpoons and M1A1s, in Saudi E-3s and F-15s, etc. etc. Every nation does what it has to according to its own interests. I don’t expect any less from the US, nor will I go about making such poor demagogic proclamations such as “they care only for themselves”. We don’t.
If you think 9/11 is because of us, too bad. If you wish to dump the incident on our laps, go ahead, get in line. Didn’t you know we’re alreay responsible for all the Middle East’s woes? Bin Laden has never struck at Israel, Palestinian members of his group are almost unheard of, but keep telling yourself it’s all our fault.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 26-07-02 AT 06:42 PM (GMT)]My post was not meant to justify the incident, I too would have liked to see it unfold differently. I don’t think this criticism of Israel is unjustified, what I was objecting to was the notion that Israel should not target men such as these.
I disagree with Coanda. I don’t think Israel is doing what other countries are afraid to do. We’re doing exactly the same as what numerous nations around the world have done in the past, are doing in the present and will do in the future. The only difference is the Middle East has always drawn a lot more attention than other, far more bloody, hotspots around the world. The world’s real mass killing fields are in Africa, but do any of us (admittedly, me included) know anything about events unfolding there? Israel takes the heat while Iraqi civilians killed by US and British aircraft are largely ignored. Oh well, Life’s a bitch. (Of course, I wouldn’t have it any other way. I can’t imagine living somewhere else. I’d probably die of boredom)
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 26-07-02 AT 06:42 PM (GMT)]My post was not meant to justify the incident, I too would have liked to see it unfold differently. I don’t think this criticism of Israel is unjustified, what I was objecting to was the notion that Israel should not target men such as these.
I disagree with Coanda. I don’t think Israel is doing what other countries are afraid to do. We’re doing exactly the same as what numerous nations around the world have done in the past, are doing in the present and will do in the future. The only difference is the Middle East has always drawn a lot more attention than other, far more bloody, hotspots around the world. The world’s real mass killing fields are in Africa, but do any of us (admittedly, me included) know anything about events unfolding there? Israel takes the heat while Iraqi civilians killed by US and British aircraft are largely ignored. Oh well, Life’s a bitch. (Of course, I wouldn’t have it any other way. I can’t imagine living somewhere else. I’d probably die of boredom)
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
Salah Shehadeh was one of the principal founders of Hamas, under whose leadership the organization carried out hundreds of attacks causing hundreds of Israeli deaths. The man was not a barber, he was not a banker, he was A TERRORIST. To suggest that targeting the man is stirring up trouble is disingenious because he and his organization were going to attack us anyway, suicide bomber were to be blown on board our buses whether we killed him or not. Now they only have another excuse. All in all, this is tatamount to saying that the USA should not have gone after Osama Bin Laden because attacking him might also prompt future attacks.
People may not like how, when and where the targetting of the man took place, but to critisize us for attacking a man whose hands are tainted with the blood of our dead is dishonest. I didn’t like this specific operation, I too thought it was a mistake. But it is also a shame it doesn’t bother any of you why such a man was walking free in the streets of Gaza, when the Palestinian Authority is supposedly ‘busy’ fighting terrorism.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Anti terror war-Isrealis style.
Salah Shehadeh was one of the principal founders of Hamas, under whose leadership the organization carried out hundreds of attacks causing hundreds of Israeli deaths. The man was not a barber, he was not a banker, he was A TERRORIST. To suggest that targeting the man is stirring up trouble is disingenious because he and his organization were going to attack us anyway, suicide bomber were to be blown on board our buses whether we killed him or not. Now they only have another excuse. All in all, this is tatamount to saying that the USA should not have gone after Osama Bin Laden because attacking him might also prompt future attacks.
People may not like how, when and where the targetting of the man took place, but to critisize us for attacking a man whose hands are tainted with the blood of our dead is dishonest. I didn’t like this specific operation, I too thought it was a mistake. But it is also a shame it doesn’t bother any of you why such a man was walking free in the streets of Gaza, when the Palestinian Authority is supposedly ‘busy’ fighting terrorism.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong
Don’t bother Barak, the use of the 2000lb bomb was indeed a mistake. We should have used cluster bombs, like NATO did in Kosovo. Hundreds of civilian deaths during the bombing campaign there, certain regions are uninhabitable to this day, but our leader is the Hitlerite war-criminal. Right …
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong
Don’t bother Barak, the use of the 2000lb bomb was indeed a mistake. We should have used cluster bombs, like NATO did in Kosovo. Hundreds of civilian deaths during the bombing campaign there, certain regions are uninhabitable to this day, but our leader is the Hitlerite war-criminal. Right …
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-07-02 AT 01:15 AM (GMT)]>According to the Geneva Convention it is a “war-crime” to
>target or attack military personnel or objects if there may
>be civillians near-by.
That’s simply not true. The Geneva Convention, in part 3 Article 28, states that “the presence of a protected person (civilian) may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”
Furthermore, the convention does not define infringements as “War-Crimes” for the mere reason that these words don’t even appear in it. Those definitions are later interpretations, they’re not part of the convention.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: IDF/AF F-16 attack goes wrong
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-07-02 AT 01:15 AM (GMT)]>According to the Geneva Convention it is a “war-crime” to
>target or attack military personnel or objects if there may
>be civillians near-by.
That’s simply not true. The Geneva Convention, in part 3 Article 28, states that “the presence of a protected person (civilian) may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”
Furthermore, the convention does not define infringements as “War-Crimes” for the mere reason that these words don’t even appear in it. Those definitions are later interpretations, they’re not part of the convention.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Just a thought
You’re quite right, Snowman, generalizing is indeed misleading. Europe is composed of millions and millions of people, each and every one a separate thinking man, each with his own views and his own opinions. But I also assume the people on this forum are intelligent enough to understand that when I say Europe, I mean European governments and European institutions, not each and every one of you. And while European governments are in themselves quite different (when I have a problem with a specific government, I say so: I don’t think my opinion of the Belgian one is any secret), I can at times critisize them as a whole, for the mere reason that the often act as a whole. I’ll give you an example:
Two months ago the United Nations held a special session on the ‘massacre’ in Jenin. You know, the one that never took place. As usual it was a forum for Israel bashing, nothing special about that. It’s not even as if we expected any reference to the suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israelis since the Palestinian Authority came into being. We’ve come to expect nothing more from the UN. But this time it was special : only a few hours prior to the vote condeming Israel, and Israel alone, for something that did not take place, a suicide bomber blew himself up on board an Israeli bus killing more than a dozen. Do you know what happened when the vote came? the European delegations AS A WHOLE disappeared without a trace. This was indeed an improvement, they usually support such notions. But still, they couldn’t even muster enough basic decency to stand up to an obvious wrong. Israel and the US did, a few other nations as well, but not Europe. That’s why I can generalize about Europe, and incidently that’s just why we ignore anything Europe has to say.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Just a thought
You’re quite right, Snowman, generalizing is indeed misleading. Europe is composed of millions and millions of people, each and every one a separate thinking man, each with his own views and his own opinions. But I also assume the people on this forum are intelligent enough to understand that when I say Europe, I mean European governments and European institutions, not each and every one of you. And while European governments are in themselves quite different (when I have a problem with a specific government, I say so: I don’t think my opinion of the Belgian one is any secret), I can at times critisize them as a whole, for the mere reason that the often act as a whole. I’ll give you an example:
Two months ago the United Nations held a special session on the ‘massacre’ in Jenin. You know, the one that never took place. As usual it was a forum for Israel bashing, nothing special about that. It’s not even as if we expected any reference to the suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israelis since the Palestinian Authority came into being. We’ve come to expect nothing more from the UN. But this time it was special : only a few hours prior to the vote condeming Israel, and Israel alone, for something that did not take place, a suicide bomber blew himself up on board an Israeli bus killing more than a dozen. Do you know what happened when the vote came? the European delegations AS A WHOLE disappeared without a trace. This was indeed an improvement, they usually support such notions. But still, they couldn’t even muster enough basic decency to stand up to an obvious wrong. Israel and the US did, a few other nations as well, but not Europe. That’s why I can generalize about Europe, and incidently that’s just why we ignore anything Europe has to say.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: An example.
Seahawk, I’ve said so before and I’ll say it again : heaven knows there are more than enough to critisize Israel for, and there are a lot of people doing just that all over Israel. If you take the time to read Ha’aretz’s online edition in depth you will find the newspaper is very critical of the Israeli government, its policies and its action. Nor do I expect anything less from anyone abroad. I never said that we are undeserving of critisicm. We don’t need Europeans to tell us killing children is wrong, we are quite capable of that ourselves.
On the other hand, that does not mean that I will accept a Europe that tells Israel what it should do, telling us what leaders we should or should not elect, nor will I stand by while gross lies are being told about us in the European Media (I wonder where the 500 dead burying under the rubble of Jenin have disappeared to). I will not accept European nations who attempt to put our elected leaders on trial just to satisfy their hypocritical and arrogant notions of justice, nor will I stand by while others attempt to boycott us for defending ourselves while embracing those who commit crimes of far larger magnitude or those who openly preach and work for our very destruction.
> perhaps we have learned a bit from our history and prefer a
> diplomatic solution instead of violence
The question is what you do when diplomacy does not work. You take Europe’s last 50 years of peace for granted. It will not necessarily remain this way, nor will diplomacy always solve your problems. Do you think Iraq would have left Kuwait without military intervention?
Do you think Britain and France should not have declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland? Should Britain have waited for Argentina to return the Falklands? The unfortunate reality of life on this planet is that simetimes people and nation are violent and beligerant, and there comes a time when action, not words, are necessary.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: An example.
Seahawk, I’ve said so before and I’ll say it again : heaven knows there are more than enough to critisize Israel for, and there are a lot of people doing just that all over Israel. If you take the time to read Ha’aretz’s online edition in depth you will find the newspaper is very critical of the Israeli government, its policies and its action. Nor do I expect anything less from anyone abroad. I never said that we are undeserving of critisicm. We don’t need Europeans to tell us killing children is wrong, we are quite capable of that ourselves.
On the other hand, that does not mean that I will accept a Europe that tells Israel what it should do, telling us what leaders we should or should not elect, nor will I stand by while gross lies are being told about us in the European Media (I wonder where the 500 dead burying under the rubble of Jenin have disappeared to). I will not accept European nations who attempt to put our elected leaders on trial just to satisfy their hypocritical and arrogant notions of justice, nor will I stand by while others attempt to boycott us for defending ourselves while embracing those who commit crimes of far larger magnitude or those who openly preach and work for our very destruction.
> perhaps we have learned a bit from our history and prefer a
> diplomatic solution instead of violence
The question is what you do when diplomacy does not work. You take Europe’s last 50 years of peace for granted. It will not necessarily remain this way, nor will diplomacy always solve your problems. Do you think Iraq would have left Kuwait without military intervention?
Do you think Britain and France should not have declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland? Should Britain have waited for Argentina to return the Falklands? The unfortunate reality of life on this planet is that simetimes people and nation are violent and beligerant, and there comes a time when action, not words, are necessary.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Euro bashing
I never said that Europe is Antisemitic. I said Antisemitism is on the increase. If some of you can’t stand that, too bad, I don’t like it too much either.
Seahawk, I don’t really get your point. I read your link. In fact I read it a few weeks ago when it came out. What are you trying to say? Which part of my post did you not like? Which part was unjustified?
Geforce, neutral is in the eye of the beholder. How can you claim Belgium’s Mid East policy is neutral when the Belgian government is about to fund the Palestinian mission to Belgium and while EU money constitues a larger share of PA budget that all sorrounding Arab states? A paper recently published in France suggests the government actually stop the official policy of claiming neutrality when all parties involved know that is not the case. Europe is about as neutral as everyone else – that is, very little.
> Learn from Europes´ failures and successes.
Excellent advice. Problem is I don’t think those mistakes are all behind it and nor am I even sure it has indeed learned from its mistakes. Take Iran – yes, we dealt with them, as the US with Iraq. But that was decades ago, while today Iran is only a few years away from obtaining nuclear weapons. Considering their avowed dedication to our destruction, I find it hard to understand Europe’s ‘business as usual’ attitude. To me it is nothing but appeasement – you’re burying your heads in the sand, rather than standing up to a threat that may even be at one point or another turned against you!
> I find it amazing that you think that the USA selflessly sacrificed
> it´s men to save Europe.America goes to war when it suits America
> to do so
And yet, at the end of it, they did fight and die for YOU. And the did get you back on your feet. Many nations would have not, but America DID. Why is irrelevant. Would Europe fight should Israel be threatened? We both know that would be a resounding ‘No’. You critisize the USA for doing more than others have ever done, and certainly a great deal more that what Europe has ever done.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
skytheRE: Euro bashing
I never said that Europe is Antisemitic. I said Antisemitism is on the increase. If some of you can’t stand that, too bad, I don’t like it too much either.
Seahawk, I don’t really get your point. I read your link. In fact I read it a few weeks ago when it came out. What are you trying to say? Which part of my post did you not like? Which part was unjustified?
Geforce, neutral is in the eye of the beholder. How can you claim Belgium’s Mid East policy is neutral when the Belgian government is about to fund the Palestinian mission to Belgium and while EU money constitues a larger share of PA budget that all sorrounding Arab states? A paper recently published in France suggests the government actually stop the official policy of claiming neutrality when all parties involved know that is not the case. Europe is about as neutral as everyone else – that is, very little.
> Learn from Europes´ failures and successes.
Excellent advice. Problem is I don’t think those mistakes are all behind it and nor am I even sure it has indeed learned from its mistakes. Take Iran – yes, we dealt with them, as the US with Iraq. But that was decades ago, while today Iran is only a few years away from obtaining nuclear weapons. Considering their avowed dedication to our destruction, I find it hard to understand Europe’s ‘business as usual’ attitude. To me it is nothing but appeasement – you’re burying your heads in the sand, rather than standing up to a threat that may even be at one point or another turned against you!
> I find it amazing that you think that the USA selflessly sacrificed
> it´s men to save Europe.America goes to war when it suits America
> to do so
And yet, at the end of it, they did fight and die for YOU. And the did get you back on your feet. Many nations would have not, but America DID. Why is irrelevant. Would Europe fight should Israel be threatened? We both know that would be a resounding ‘No’. You critisize the USA for doing more than others have ever done, and certainly a great deal more that what Europe has ever done.
—————————————-
” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
Sign In
