RE: Euro bashing

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-07-02 AT 04:51 AM (GMT)]Can’t speak for the Americans, but I can tell you what it looks like from Israeli eyes.

You see Mongu, when Europe is warming up to the world’s largest sponsor of international terrorism ( [link:http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,761527,00.html|Iran was behind 1994 Argentina bombing, says defector ] ), when European money is used to educate Palestinian children that Jews are thieves and monkeys ( [link:http://www.edume.org/reports/3/intro.htm|The Palestinian Authority School Textbooks For The Year 2000] ), or for much much worse ( [link:http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=102… the euro trail] ), when antisemetisim is on the increase ( [link:http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=119115&contrassID=3… ‘New Anti-Semitism’] ) and has even turned deadly ( [link:http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185742&contrassID=3… officer killed when anti-Semitic sign explodes in Russia] ) , one gets the distinct feeling that the endless quasi-moral diatribe regularly coming out of Europe is, for lack of a better word, hypocrtical BS.
God knows that we Israelis are far from perfect and that a lot of criticism of Israel is very justified. But to preached to by nations whose history is drenched in more blood than one can even possibly imagine, and who had to be saved from themselves by American intervention (Do you really think Europe would be as prosperous and peaceful today had it not been for American reconstruction after WWII and the subsequent defensive umbrela, which incidently continues to this day?), is really too much.
I do love Europe, I’ve spent six years of my life in it and countless vacations. I’m just tried of coming to this forum and hearing how grand Europe is and how terrible America is or how stupid Bush is, when not one of us is even slightly better.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: Infantry Combat Vehicles

Israeli development of MBT based APC is not solely derived from the needs of urban warfare, but from many other factors, many far more influential. At the bottom of all these was something very fundamental: what is an an APC? Is it simply a protected transport vehicle, ment to solely deliver the troops to the front line, or is it a fighting vehicle which particpates in battle? Should troops fight on foot or from within their APCs? The answers to these questions have always had a lot of bearing on the nature of APCs, affecting a range of characteristics such as mobility, firepower and protection. One always comes at the expense of the another.
Up to the 1982 war IDF APCs were almost exclusively lightweight, lightly armored APCs such as the M-113. But statistics collected during the war and various wargames had shown that 50% of IDF infantry fatalities were caused by hits scored on their APCs. Subsequently the IDF saw the need to provide APCs exposed to enemy fire with a whole lot more protection. Thus were born the Nagmashot and Puma, and the first to receive MBT APCs were the combat engineers – not because these fight more urban battles but because the engineers are the spearhead of any offensive, tasked with destorying enemy barriers and fortifications, and are the most likely to come under heavy enemy fire. They, unlike others infantry, are also in a whole lot more need of their APCs in battle, as they use these for mineclearing, scaling barriers etc.

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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “

RE: AA vehicle pics

I’ve got an AA question. I was once told that the ZSU 57*2 wasn’t all that popular with its crews because it has a tendency to roll over when firing. Is this true?

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

Attachments:

RE: Infantry Combat Vehicles

A little on Israeli tank-derived APCs (photos in same order): The Achzarit, depicted in two of Hawk’s photos, is used by infantry units and is based on the T-54 & T-55 chassis. The Puma, used by combat engineers, is based on Centurians. Besides these two, you’ve also got the alien-looking Nagmachon based on M-48s and the Nakpadon based on Centurians.
With the mess going on right now, there’s an abundance of photos of Israeli armor of all sorts at Yahoo News. Simply go the the slideshow section, they’ve got one dedicated to the Middle East. A venerable treasure for armor enthusiats.

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

Attachments:

RE: “Jews only” urban communit

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-07-02 AT 07:26 PM (GMT)]Believe me, Geforce, this law enrages me a great deal more than it enrages you. That dispicable proposition will never make into the law books, for numerous reasons.
The story in the above post is incomplete. The vote mentioned above took place in a cabinet meeting for which it was not planned. Right-wing ministers in effect used the opportunity that the Prime Minister and all Labour ministers but one (Sneh) were out of the room to bring it up. Sharon has already informed the cabinet that despite earlier support, the law in its current form in unacceptable and that it will be amended and returned to the cabinet for a second vote.
Even if they do approve it again at a later date, it still has to go through two Knesset commitees, and three Knesset votes, where it simply does not have the majority to make it into the law books. And even should that disaster happen, it has yet to stand the test of the Supreme Court, which it has no chance of doing considering the court’s Katzir ruling and the law contradiction with Israel constitutional laws. Even the General Attorney has voiced his oposition to the law and it is doubtfull he will agree to defend it before the court.

In short, Geforce, don’t count you’re chickens before they’re hatched. This law is about nothing more than a few pathetic legislators who wish to prop up their pathetic position in their pathetic insignificant parties. Israel is not going to change that fast, and not without a fight from those among us who know that this proposition is not what our parents fought for.

And BTW, the term “Zionist-only” state does not make any sense, it doesn’t mean anything. It is about as logical as “Anarchist-only”, Zionism is an idea, not an identity. Besides, between the two of us Geforce, what do you actually know of Zionism that you flaunt the word that easily?

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: Sticking with EL AL

About the Ukranian incident :

Ukraine says will investigate missile flash seen by El Al pilot
By Yossi Melman, Ha’aretz Correspondent, News agencies

Ukrainian government officials told Israeli officials Friday that it was prepared to work with Israel in its investigation of an incident in which the pilot of an El Al flight reported seeing a surface-to-air missile explosion as he flew over the Ukraine the previous day.

The El Al flight was en route from Tel Aviv to Moscow.

With the announcement Ukrainian officials were not denying the possibility that they were connected to the incident. They said that they had thoroughly investigated the matter and that they were not connected to it.

The report seemed to be confirmed by the pilot of a Ukrainian plane who also reported seeing a flash in the sky.

Transport Minister Ephraim Sneh said the Israeli plane was never in danger and voiced doubt it had come under attack.

The Ukrainian Defense Ministry said Ukraine had not conducted any missile launches since accidentally downing a Russian airliner on a flight last October from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk in Siberia, killing 78 passengers and crew.

Sneh said he had spoken at length with the El Al pilot, whom he described as an experienced combat veteran of the Israeli air force.

“There is no doubt that he saw a missile that exploded in the air, apparently far from the plane,” Sneh told Army Radio. “Circumstances suggest it was not launched at the El Al plane.”

Reports of the purported missile launch followed an attack at an El Al counter at Los Angeles airport in which a gunman killed two people before security guards shot him dead.

The Ukrainian government said the military had not fired a missile. “At that time there was no military training with shooting in Ukraine,” Defense Ministry spokesman Kostiantyn Khivrenko said. “Nobody shot even from cannons and automatic rifles, not only in that direction, but in all Ukraine.”

Ukrainian President Leonid Kuchma said that since an errant missile shot down a Sibir Airlines plan over his country on Oct 4, killing all 78 passengers, most of them immigrants to Israel, “all missile exercises in Ukraine have been banned.” Kuchma was speaking during a trip to Copenhagen, Denmark.

Amos Shapira, El Al’s managing director, told Army Radio: “The pilot saw a flash…It was at least 10 to 100 miles (16 to 160 km) away. The plane was in no danger.”

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: He’s trolling for cash donations…

“Race and ethnicity are actually the same thing. “

I disagree. The very concept of race is defined by genetics alone. As I’ve said, ethnicity is beyond genetics; it is also about will and choice and, indeed, culture. This is where we differ. You see ethnicity as a purely scientific concept, while I believe it is a much more abstract idea that does encompass more than mere skin color.

“You know that much yourself as you later say “who sought to formulate ethnicity or race through physical stereotypes”.”

I was talking about the Nazis. They, we can agree, were wrong on a whole load of issues.

“If you think that Judaism is not a race then you are agreeing with what I have been saying… it is not a race… it may be a culture but it is not a race.”

OK, so now there’s something we both seem to agree upon. Judaism is not merely a religion but something more. You call it culture, but I think it extends beyond that. Ethiopian Jews were completely different from American or Israeli Jews, and their rituals are a world apart from the rest of world Jewry. Yet Israel did what it did for them out of belief that it is not merely responsible for those acting according to certain articles of faith or culture.
At the end of the day, Garry, it does not really matter if anyone does not think that Jews are a nation. It matters what the Jews think, and if the majority of them seem to think so, then it is. That’s the way Nationalism works, there’s no authority that decides whether a certain group of people has met the criteria. An excellent example is the Palestinians. The very term “Palestinian People” was born a century ago, and until that time there was no Palestinians identity, Palestine was merely the name of a Province in the Ottoman Empire whose inhabitants were Arabs. Palestinian Nationalism emerged with the advent of Zionism, when local Arabs rose to resist a threat that was local to them and irrelevant to neighboring regions. The Palestinian People exist because they will it so, not by genetic decree. And so do the Jewish People.

“Culture is all about the way we speak, how we communicate, the way we do things and why we do it.”

Exactly, since world Jewry does not speak one single language, and does not do things the same way or for the same reason, Judaism in nor merely a religion and not merely a culture.

“What part of the history of Judaism makes it any different from any other religion?”

Excellent question – quite a lot actually. Historically, when you look at its origins, Judaism was not a religion in the current sense of the word. It was rather a set of beliefs that belonged to a very specific group of people, the Hebrews, a people who had political institutions as well. Judaism was no less national identity than a religion. Since the Hebrew state was wiped out by the Roman Empire, Judaism’s ethnic and national aspects were diminished relative to the religious perspective. Diminished, but not cancelled, and one facet of Zionism is the reemergence of those long-hidden dimensions. Now, I have no way of knowing whether I am a pure descendant of the Hebrews (Although genetic studies have shown similarities between different Jewish communities around the world and even the Palestinians), but I am a Jew, and as such they are my ancestors. I certainly don’t know of any other.
Furthermore, unlike Christianity or Islam, Judaism never aspired (and still doesn’t) to be universal – there’s no such thing as a Jewish missionary, nor does the religion seek converts. That is why it also maintains a national aspect, exactly because it is not merely a religion but also a national identity that bonds a certain group of people together.

“Are the Rotary Club and Masonic Lodge seperate ethnic groups too?
Is there no Christian nation?
The Amish work together are they a nation too?”

It’s really up to them.

“Israel exists not by Virtue or by right but by force and for no other reason than that.”

That’s quite right, a very realistic approach. But you are aware that numerous countries on Earth were born this way? The name New Zealand doesn’t really sound Maori … My previous comment, that the question of whether we “deserve” a state or not is both arrogant and irrelevant, still stands.

“If a thief robs a house …”

Oh yes, Israelis are thieves who stole the land from the poor Palestinians. But if you’re going to ignore history and actual events, why stop there? You can make sound whole lot sexier by describing Israelis as some kind of aliens that landed out of space one day and simply took over the place in one single crushing offensive. Never mind the facts when you can tell a nice simplistic story.

“Why do I get the feeling you are dying to say he becomes one of Gods chosen people?”

I don’t know, why do you? The thought never crossed my mind. Why do I suddenly get the feeling you were dying for me to say that?

“If it is abstract and without formula how is it identified?”
“How do you know it is even there in the first place?”

By choice, by decision, by will. It’s a very democratic process, wouldn’t you say?

“How do you know no other religions have it?”

I don’t. I never claimed to be speaking on behalf of anyone but myself. Others may have it, I really don’t know. It’s up to them.

“That is unfair. You asked me what I’d do if a schoolbus with my child on it was fire bombed. You said nothing about it being in Germany under Hitlers rule.”

The remark stands nonetheless. It still applies in other times and in other places, and is just as relevant for one person as it is for entire populations. It is very easy to talk of steadfastness, but neither you nor I have ever seriously had the lives of our family members directly threatened. There are chances no one will be willing to take.

“Ahh, so you get a bad history in Europe and you think the world hates you?
Do I hate Jews?
Does the US hate Jews?
Does New Zealand or Australia hate Jews?”

You misunderstand me. As I said before, I do not think the world is Anti-Semitic. By “unable to shake” I was talking about a phenomenon that still persists through time and around the world. I never said that the entire world is afflicted, that every single person and nation is effected, but that it exists practically everywhere.

“Running away and hiding in your own country is your solution?”

Yes! Got a better one? (Besides the one in the following paragraph, you’ll see I didn’t like it much)

“Perhaps staying where they were and showing those around them that they are not as they are portrayed by those who don’t like them or those who don’t understand them was considered a better option.”

That’s a noble idea Garry, but it has absolutely nothing to do with reality. Indians Americans were decimated! European Jewry tried integrating into society for centuries. What good did it do them? So today they’re OK, but at what cost? I wouldn’t be here today if my grandfather had decided to stay put and “show those around them that they are not as they are portrayed”. No, he “run away” and was all that survived of his family.

“Yes perhaps the fact that they refused an offer of half the land they thought was theirs and the fact they have been fighting for 50 years to get it back means they don’t deserve to have their own country too”

They do deserve a country of their own, but it would get here a lot faster if they did not seek it through the destruction of Israel. They could have had a state in 1947. They could have had one in the territories captured by Jordan and Egypt in 1948 and held until 1967. They could have had one in 2000. And yet, they don’t. Not because of some fundamental refusal, but because they seem unable to grasp the idea that as long as their road to independence goes through the glorification of killing and violence, it will lead them nowhere.

“Are you suggesting that the rest of the world should have gone into Europe and rounded up a million or two to drag off to the rest of the world? The fact is they were not turned away because they were jewish. This suggests that it wasn’t the case that the whole world hated jews”

My point is that while taking care of Jewish orphans was a very noble act, it nonetheless pales in comparison with the needs of thousands and thousands of European Jews in desperate need. Many were not welcome is their home countries (some Polish Jews returning to reclaim their property were murdered); others had no desire to return. I don’t think people were turned away because they were Jews, I am fully aware that no nation was faring all that well at the time. But the problem did exist, and there was a dire need for a solution. It is Israel that ultimately became the answer for many of these people.

“Their home nation would be obligated to.”

In concept yes, but you’re once again ignoring reality. What if they don’t want them? What if it were the country that expelled them in the first place? Who would take thousands of Jews expelled from, let’s say, Tunisia?

“Many of the White farmers in Zimbabwe and South Africa are choosing to come here and to Australia. We take them in with no questions about their religion”

Don’t tell me New Zealand or Australia take anyone who simply wishes to immigrate. You need only watch the news to know that’s not exactly true. Israel has defined itself as a refuge for any Jew who wishes to immigrate for any possible reason, for the exact reason that is can never tell whether the will come a time when Jews are not always welcome in their home nations. That does not mean that non-Jews cannot immigrate, there’s also a very large community of foreign workers in Israel, mostly Africans. But Israel, as a Jewish homeland, will take in those Jews in need, no questions asked.

“This wonderful state that does not oppress Jews and does not oppress anyone else sounds very interesting… and you accuse me of being idealistic?”

I never said we were perfect, on the contrary, I admitted we are not on more than one occasion.

“To answer your questions with your own arguments Yes the Japanese state must oppress Jews because by definition all states except a jewish one oppresses jews … that is of course why you needed your Jewish state in the first place isn’t it?”

But those are not my arguments. I did not say that foreign states necessarily oppress Jews, I said they might and that Israel exists so that Jews don’t have to take that chance, that they can always find refuge here. Just as Japan doesn’t necessarily oppress minorities, the existence of Israel does not mean non-Jews are necessarily oppressed.

“And if there is discrimination inside Israel today and the discrimination is against a minority how can the state solve the problem when the state is the problem?”

But you’re the one saying the state is the problem! I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but discrimination exists almost everywhere. Does that mean that every afflicted state should be dismantled?

“It is not common sense that a Jew and a Palestinian shouldn’t marry. Love does not abide by politics.”

They don’t marry not because they are forbidden but because the reality of the matter, the real tragedy I was trying to explain, is that the two populations have grown apart. Jews frequent Arab towns less than they did before, less Arabs settle in predominantly Jewish cities, because suspicion and fear are wreaking havoc inside Israel, not only with the Palestinians. Of course mixed marriages still take place, but they’re less common than they used to.

“yet you admit Israel blew up their airport because they were bringing in weapons.”

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there’s a war going on. Plenty of nations had their airports and airfields destroyed in war, you only to look at it in the context of the war, not in some great evil master plan to deny them their independence. When Israel destroyed airfields in Egypt in 1967, it wasn’t some move to deny them the benefits of aviation, nor a first step in the installment of a new regime!

“We are walling up our neighbours”

Walling them up, indeed. All that’s going on is the building of a fence to prevent those neighbors from sending human bombs into our cities, on board our buses, into our restaurants. How dare we protect ourselves the same way other nations do? Or should the fence between Israel and Lebanon be pulled down too, so that the four Israelis kidnapped by the Hizbullah should be joined by a few more of their friends?

“He can have as many weapons as we let him”

As many weapons and of as many types as specified in the agreements they had signed, nothing more, nothing less. In fact, the irony is that many of the weapons now turned against Israel are the same weapons Israel has provided the Palestinian Authority with!

“They’ve only suffered for 50 years”

Oh yes, and that’s entirely our fault. They’ve tried to destroy us on a number of occasions, refused any compromise on many others, de-legitimize our very existence to this day, but amnesia seems like the order of the day so we’ll forget about all those …

“950 to go before they can whine like we do”

Not really, but it also up to them.

“the whole world hates us.”

I never said that. Please stop putting words in my mouth, it is getting rather boring

“How often does Austria get their airports destroyed for importing arms?”

“Importing”, that’s nice Garry. Nations who smuggle illegal weapons (illegal by the same accords they have signed) and then turn them against another nation, are very likely to get their airports blown away.

“I was actually thinking of ghettos within states where there is no work, lots of crime, and lots of people with lots of time and nothing to do and no legal form of income.”

As I said, that’s primarily up to them. Prosperity does not depend on landmass, but rather on personal freedoms, effective legislation, a supportive government, free enterprise and loads of other factors. Palestinians are among the best educated in the Arab World, and they’ve also got ahead start with the entire world’s support behind them. Israel can and should do a lot to forward that vision, but its strength does not mean it will necessarily overshadow an independent Palestine.

“Except there is no way out because this ghetto is also a state within a state”

Besides Israel, Palestine will also border Egypt and Jordan. It is not landlocked by Israel alone. Besides, I brought up Austria and Switzerland because they too are landlocked, and yet they aren’t doing too badly …

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.

RE: congrats Rabie…..

The webmaster really ought to change the “Charter Member” caption to something more fitting the occasion, “Super Member” or something …

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U.N. Representative: So, Mr. Evil –
Dr. Evil: It’s Dr. Evil, I didn’t spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called “mister,” thank you very much.