FirebexReally….?
It’s not as if it would have been setting any precident in that respect. RR299 was being operated, effectively, by the legacy company that desgined and built it, and had it been donated to BBMF, it would have been no different to two of the flight’s other aircraft that were techincally ‘civilian’ owned/operated by their respective originating companies, AB910 and PZ865 were on the civie register and operated by VA and HS prior to donation to the flight.
Please re read the paragraph you failed to mention two thirds of it ?? Civilian opertd aircraft was 1/3 of the paragraph
Thank you
FirebexHi Jerry
yes some very interesting stuff coming out of the archive pity there are’nt more loft drawings appearing.A few issues around the cockpit area and we hope to be able to cut some metal before long but we just want to be 110% before we do.We could actually start to cut metal now for some areas but we wish to be certain and not look silly cutting metal and making structure and find we have the wrong drawings.
Petter was certainly a very clever man and must rate alongside the designers of the Spitfire,Hurricane and Lancaster. He proved this by going on to design such aircraft as the Lightning and the Canberra amongst some. Have you ever notice if you take a side view of a Whirlwind and put a piece of card over the cockpit and wing area to hide it you could be forgiven for thinking you are looking at the picture of a Meteor ???. I wonder who copied what idea from who ??
Mike E
FirebexYes, I couldn’t agree more!
Going back to the Mosquito discussion, where the will exists in a coherent well funded group, almost anything can be done. If a group exists that wants to put a flyable Mosquito into the UK skies, raise the money and use the experience now firmly established in NZ.
I think that this comment has been said by many and I think that this would be the best and most viable way to go for the project.Not only in time but in cost and would probably be far better received by the CAA than trying to re invent the wheel that someone has mentioned previoulsy.Trying to get approval for major changes in structure and materials and glues changes everything and you are basically building a completely new type of aircraft and as such the testing of materials sample of structure that have to be tested to destruction etc is going to eat a lot of money as is the services of approved and experienced people with aircraft design and stress knowledge.
The CAA could very well place so many requirements on the project design and construction it could kill it stone dead on sheer cost grounds.
Please I would strongly suggest raise the funds and speak to the powers at be and seriously look at the guys in NZ building it for you. It will still be a mosquito ,it will still be a British design,it will still be owned and operated in the UK it will fly in the UK.But it will be assembled in NZ !!! so ?.How many war birds and historic aircraft are flying in the UK that where rebuilt outside the UK ???. Doing everything in the UK sounds nice but realistically at the end of the day if you reach your goal and have a fully flying Mosquito in the UK does it matter where it was assembled or rebuilt ?. You could go down the lines of having the main airframe parts built in NZ and shipped to the UK then it could be assembled in the UK and that for me would be as close as you could get to your ultimate dream !!!
Mike e
Firebexas previously mentioned I was around RR299 and at its sad demise and to re mention that prior to its demise RR299 had been offered to the BBMF and talks had been taking place but there where reservations and issues regarding the BBMF taking on board what in effect was a civilian owned and operated machine and also its structural and support issues.
At the time I think that BAE where loosing shall we say the will to carry on supporting the type and also the issues with Rolls Royce and not supporting Merlins at that time contributed I think we can safely say to the Aircraft being operated by the BBMF.
Now then to come forward to the present what has changed ? the Engines are now being fully supported by a number of organisations.But the airframe support issue is still there also the question marks from BBMF and spares support and also operating costs .The BBMF aircraft are now all fully maintained and overhauled by outside agencies on contract we are then back to one of the other points raised previously in that what company or organisation in the UK is approved by the CAA on type or willing to be so ??
what is the situation with the military taking on a civilian aircraft
Again not criticism just pointing out possible hiccups !!!
Firebex[QUOTE=Easyrider5258;1839343]Why? ………
The Peoples Mosquito Group hav’nt asked the self proclaimed “Experts” on here for their guidence and to express their reservations :confused:
With respect that seems a very narrow comment and I hope does not reflect the thoughts of the steering members of the group. There are people on this forum although they do not advertise the fact have more expertise in their little finger regarding vintage and historic aircraft rebuild to flying standard than many and I do not count myself amongst them and I have over 40 years experience on many types.
Like any forum there are bound to be arm chair experts and critics but there is also a lot of well informed people and a lot of expertise to avoid or discount their knowledge and suggestions could cause problems for any builder or project. Not only in construction techniques and getting around engineering problems but also in dealing with the relevant authorities
Advice is freely given by many experts but it is up to the listener as to if they take any notice of it !!!!. As has been said the project is in the early days looking at the feasibility of everything therefore the advice and knowledge of many contributors may have the answers to some of the key problems and don’t forget this forum is World wide.
Mike E
FirebexThis is a rather incredible claim. I’d have thought that the engineering changes required for a Merlin would be considerable, amounting to a major redesign of the aircraft. That even a smaller-scale attempt was actually made and avoided previous discovery appears doubtful. That it was not only created but flown in trials, and yet has escaped record, seems extremely unlikely. That the Merlins were simply interchangeable with the Peregrines sounds complete fantasy. I think you will need very strong evidence for any of this.
Might I also suggest you visit the Rolls Royce Heritage centre at Derby (fascinating place)there you will see a Kestrel,Peregrine and Merlin next to each other. You will also note when you compare the engines that even though the Peregrine is supposed to be basically a very modified Kestrel it is in fact very Merlin in appearance and is around 7/8 the size so when compared to a single stage Merlin not a lot of difference and it can be seen that it would be very feasible.You can access a three D tour of an engine at Derby via our web site this may also assist.
FirebexOn going through the Westland Archives we have found a lot of information and photographs.
To start with the first aircraft was originally engineered and fitted with Kestrels until the Peregrines arrived.
Petter then spent an awful lot of time redesigning the cowls and nacelles and one aircraft flew with this new configuration.The aircraft was sent to Rolls Royce and spent a good while with them including having the Merlin installations.
There are records and letters in existence supporting this from the archives also
documented information confirming that Rolls Royce would no longer support the peregrine and also that as they where fully committed on Merlin production to other manufacturers they did not have spare capacity to produce Merlin’s for the Whirlwind even though trials had been favorable.
The first aircraft also had an alternate design with twin tail similar in appearance to the HE162.
Another fact people have asked why the Whirlwind did not participate in the B of B there are also letters between the powers at be stating that the Whirlwind force would be held back and it would be the focus of an anti invasion strike against the feared German invasion on our beaches.
Further information is available on our web site.
Mike E
FirebexThe only Mossies I know of are either in the Sea (war grave)all metal work engines the lot but you would never ever get permission for it.Then there are two or three crash sites that may produce some stuff and possibly an identity but what you recover would be very different from static Museum display to flying.Patterns at best.
Far from criticizing the project we are supportive but it is difficult when our own efforts are then being derided by certain people.There is a lot more out there of some of the projects mentioned than people think or can be discussed at present but there are groups and individuals working hard to recreate aircraft that would otherwise be lost .And many like ourselves being supported even by the original manufacturer or the current custodian of the archives.
If the so called arm chair critics knew the facts behind all the projects they would perhaps find another interest to comment on.many groups and organisation’s work together and pool information and parts and preservationists have for many years supported live projects and organisations undergoing flying restorations and visa versa.I am thinking of the likes of BAPC Members and BAAC projects finding all sorts of supporting information and parts not available on drawings.
For example when we rebuilt our first Spitfire in 1991 we had limited drawings but over 2,000 photographs and patterns taken from other projects and builders as a result of a ten day tour around the UK armed with drawing paper,card and plenty of film for the camera’s.Then we reciprocated to the builders with information and trade of parts .
As has been said before a lot goes into a project of any form but if it is static or to fly a lot of in depth study and information gathering must take place before it can become a viable project.
Mike E
FirebexAt the end of the day before you actually commit to doing anything or cutting any material if its to happen in the Uk you must involve the people who at the end of the day will say Yes or No. I mean of course the CAA from experience you need to speak to them in depth about the project ,its aims,its supporting documentation,engineering,support etc.And ask them for their advice and what you would need to provide to them for them to be even interested in giving the project the ok and eventual certification. Its something that really is going to be a struggle to get a permit on and will be very heavily restricted with some very in depth guides on what you can and cant do. It definitely wont be an owner operator maintenance schedule.It will have to be an organisation that the CAA will approve and I would imagine only that one.So you will need an engineering organisation on board to help you with the technical side with the CAA and the key build and operational maintenance issues.Or get your team approved and anyone who has 8-20 now that is going to change again will tell you it ain’t easy to get or operate within.Even major organizations such as those at Duxford have found its not always easy in recent times satisfying the men from Gatwick.
There have been cases in the past when projects have been started to fall flat on their face because no one consulted the CAA to start with.People may call them all sorts of names etc but I have always found if you consult them from the start and ask their advice you ain’t at some time down the line having to take 3/4 of it apart because they do not like the way its been done.And I know someone it happened to because he thought he knew better.
good luck but I thought we are being ambitious with the Whirlwind Fighter with 40 years experience plus behind me and a good bit with the other guys in historic and vintage aircraft. Very,very ambitious but please do consult everyone even if you don’t think there is a need to at this time you may find it helps a long way down the line.And may save time,effort and of course that evil Money !!
FirebexDammit now you tell me !!!!!!!!!!! :diablo: anyway my shed is made from a Lanc and a Stirling joined together so It would not look right !
You have changed that story Graham are you telling the truth ????? last week it was a Wellington Bi plane !!!!!!.
Firebexany sign of those ex Nigerian Airforce Stirlings yet ????
The man did say if we sent him $5 million dollars by western union he would have the aircraft delivered
six of them as well there are !!!!!! potential flyers he says !!!!.
FirebexI was involved at one stage on the extremities with RR299 I was also sadly present at its demise and the loss of two good friends.
There are a number of issues to get around not least being a supporting organisation with the CAA approvals and willing to support the design.
A seldom publicized fact is that RR299 was in fact offered to the BBMF and that discussions had taken place as to the viability of operating the aircraft.
I am sure Bruce will back me up on this but following the sad loss at Manchester of RR299 BAE had the opportunity of building another airframe and major components did exist in the Uk and a mass of spare parts.After much sole searching the decision was taken not to proceed the major airframe parts where disposed of and all the stock of in some cases brand new and serviceable parts where split between Tony Agar,The DH Museum ,and one other project.I also understand that a lot of the items previously held by a major war bird operator in the Uk went to form part of what is in NZ.
The ease or likely hood of a Mosquito getting a new build approval in the UK in fact I would venture as to say in Europe except for the scale versions is doubtful.I fear it could be a very expensive exercise for not the desired reward.I also think that the estimated cost quoted here is well short of the mark given the costs of documentation and inspections alone let alone manufacture of brand new parts to original drawings from original spec materials.
To give an example we seriously looked at the feasibility of building a Whirlwind Fighter to fly being a metal stressed skin beast it seemed it would be straight forward then we looked at the specialized materials,castings and systems and we estimated 6 million without engine bays and undercarriage and then the paperwork and certification.It became frightening.
It seems rather sad but the guys in NZ seem to know what they are doing and have the gear and also by the sounds of it a rather large budget that does not worry them.If they say don’t go there I would say they are speaking some sense. Support the DH museum aircraft restoration and Tony Agar’s machine at Elvington back to ground running taxi able in 2012
It would be nice to see a UK based machine but I think it may never be realistic or approved by the powers at be.
We did have more than one airworthy airframe in the UK at one stage and they all went abroad mainly the US except for the ones that got scrapped. Did’nt Kermit have one airworthy example with another static one with thoughts of rebuilding that also at one time ?.There was also two in Canada one being lost in the great hangar fire
Mike E
Firebexwow indeed I had understood she had considerable metal corrosion issues in the nose bay and undercarriage department and also that certain collections and other Vulcan’s where supposed to be going to be the recipients of parts of her to continue their existence.
Mike e
FirebexWe have as you know been very fortunate to have Westlands themselves on board with help on our project and unrestricted access to archive material that is in as much as it exists or can be found.
There is very strong evidence that not only was a Whirlwind fitted with a merlin installation but also that it flew in trials with the same installation.Unpon realisation of how much improved it was and that Oops there woul dbe a demand for merlins the aircraft was promptly refitted with its Peregrines and returned.
There is however no reference of even suggestion that the Whirlwind was fitted with anything else.And as there was little if no interest shown by the US military in the aircraft shipped to the USA I cannot see them going to the trouble of trial installations given all the other aircraft they had already in production that to be blunt at the time had better performance than the Whirlwind.
Mike E
FirebexDon’t worry guys we are getting the Preserved reserve on standby if needed.
Most of them are supported and maintained by ex RAF , Army air corp and fleet air arm personnel so no problem.We might just need them.
Don’t forget the US may not wish to get involved especially when Oil reserves etc are involved and they may have interest on both sides.Half the oil platforms and companies drilling off the Falklands are actually US owned and they wont want them getting scratched will they ??
Even though we have helped them out of the pooh in Irag and Afghanistan and given them 2 dozen harriers that we could well do with keeping ourselves.The US Military and congress will have very little will to help us in another conflict as they are in financial restraint mode !!!!!
mike E
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