FirebexAerojumbles are very thin on the ground in the North of England.It would be nice if we could find a venue to do this at ?.
Even Newark is a trek for a lot of folks.
I feel there is a place for both but I was a little surprised to find someone at Newark selling stuff for about twice the going evilbay rate let alone its proper value. But I suppose when folks are daft enough to pay that much money it will drive the prices up.
If the stuff does not sell because we think its to expensive to buy then the sellers will have to rethink and bring the prices down to a parity with a fair allowance of circa plus 15% to cover evilbay and paypal charges.The market would then be a lot fairer and more stable for all .I cannot see how some of the organisations selling very large lumps for very large amounts of money and re advertising it month after month because there are no takers can sustain the fees surely there comes a point when sense must prevail ???.
Mike E
Firebexthere was a rumour circulating that it is already in the UK and has been for a little whil and has undergone a survey re the rebuild work required .
Mike E
FirebexBest wishes to everyone at GAM for your forthcoming meetings / presentations. 🙂
Definately second that one guys any further help you need shout up
Mike E
Firebexsounds like a 2-3 times the best going rate last one went at Bonhams for £1.7 million with a current ticket ???
FirebexMike, without sounding flippant, join the BAPC – it would go some way to show the non-believers of your sound intentions….
Dear Boy I was there at the begining of BAPC 1968/1969 ask the likes of Malcolm Goosey,Peter Schofield etc,etc.Sadly a lot of names are no longer with us.(Keith Fordyce,Jack Bruce ,Comdr White,etc,etc)
With respect I was rebuilding and preserving old aeroplanes when a lot of contributors to this forum had not even been thought of !!!.
I did send Brian the forms twice but for some reason it all never got processed got lost in the transmission or something.If we rejoined would it make any difference ?? Would join up tomorrow if we thought it would.
I doubt it .sorry to be sceptical but I have seen to many screw ups in over 43 years and the attitudes have not changed thats why we keep a low profile and dont advertise our presence and where abouts.We rely on word of mouth mainly and recomendations as to the standard of work we do and the experience of our guys..Last time we went public so to speak and advertised ourselves we had an awfull lot of Spitfire stuff walk out a hole where the door used to be. Any organisation or individual is only as good or bad as their last project. There is still a great deal of them and us between the large collections and the small groups etc doing a lot of the core work and some significant work.Call it what ever you like there are a lot of names for it .Why cant the restoration and preservation communtiy large or small work together instead of a fair bit of time against each other ???.I have said it before and I apologise for the slight diversion but a central data base of projects and all the owners collections working together to give a pool of exhibits that can be rotated around the museums to give exposure to not only more projects but the public the opportunity to see something different.Obviously Large airframes are in some what of a category of their own and are very difficult to rotate so easily but it is not 100% impossible.
To get back to the point of this thread.
But the fact remains we were told regardless as our funding and the sponsor was a private individual it was very unlikely that our proposal and enquiry would even be looked at.There was even some talk about there being some conditions relating to the aircrafts future that could even mean it would be scrapped as a “Suitable” (not my wording) organisation may not be found to care for the future of the airframe.
There has been mention of the aircrafts condition as we understand it the outwings and control surfaces are off the airframe and there is also a significant amoun tof the interior either missing or just placed inside.We were informed that shortly after the airframe arrived the cockpit was taken out with the idea of creating a cockpit display.This did not happen and so the information tells it the interior was lost/mislaid for some time and no one could recall where it had been sent for storage.We understand since then that a couple of guys spent a fair bit of time trying to put this situation right.What stage they got up to we do not know.
Mike E
FirebexWhen it was mooted that this airframe may be available we offered to take her under our wing.We arranged a transport company.we did all the costings ,we had a choice of two potential homes ,a temporary workshop 120 feet long 40 feet wide to house the dismantled aircraft whilst being worked on,and more importantly we had sponsors to under right the costs.The ultimate aim was they wanted the aircraft back to ground running and taxiable.
Our approaches have apparantly been rejected and the reply we got via a third party was that as we are not a major collection and the fact that it was going to be sponsored and paid for by private individuals made us not a worhty contendor for the airframes future safety.
I am sorry but if there is a plan in place,transport in place a future home in place and funding albeit public or private does it matter ?
Or is the preffered option a cheque for the scrap metal value ???.
I regret at times policy of major collections is very confused and very inflexible.
If these alledged negotiations dont go anywhere I trust that perhaps our offer
will be given proper consideration and we will not sadly as we fear read in these pages that the aircraft is to be cut up in the next few weeks because no one could be found to take the aircraft on !!!!!!!!!.:(:(:(
Mike E
FirebexI have not heard if anyone else is going but we will be taking the Whirlwindfighterproject sales stand and also hopefully if our Discovery tug is on line the Kraguj will be making its second public appearance in 18 months.
Mike E
FirebexTo some extent I can understand their position from a purely commercial point of view. Hauling a Spitfire around is an expensive proposition and very hard work. You cannot just rely on volunteers. I need two trained staff to set mine up, they have to paid wages if you want them to turn up reliably. They have to be fed and watered as well as accommodated. On top of that I need two vehicles, a lorry and a 4X4 these both have to be taxed, insured and maintained. Then you have fuel costs. Inevitably things get broken and need repair. In my case I also have to carry out regular maintenance on the engine and moving parts. There is very little profit if any, the first season we made a huge loss.
This does not even start to cover the cost of building the thing in the first place.
The fees charged will just about cover running costs as long as you don’t get any major break downs how ever this can quickly evaporate.
In the case of an organisation like the RBL I would doubt the Spitfire would raise much revenue after expenses.
Displaying a Spitfire is not a commercial proposition its more about having the interest and enjoying the events you attend.
Saying that I fully understand the feelings of the volunteers that built the Spitfire clearly more research should have been done on the revenue position before committing its members to thousands of hours of hard work.
sorry Graham but you are miles away the project NEVER made a loss and was in profit from the start and at every event.The build costs came from donations specificaly made by companies and individuals.The custom transporter trailer was also donated as was the towing vechicle donated by a major company.The only cost was fuel and this was covered by donations from the organisations who wanted the aircraft at their events.
The aircraft was as stated many times before considered by the RBL to be not modern enough !!!.And they had voiced the opinion that perhaps a Harrier would be more appropriate.Rather ironic when you consider what has happened to the Harrier that is by the way over 45 years old.
And it still realised them circa £75,000 pre auction for an outlay from the legion funds of ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. not bad income when you can get it dont spend any money let volunteers and companies donate all the money and effort to build then sell it and keep the money and not even give it to the branch that started the project and guided the build for the benifit of all.
A very sad event still makes people get upset ,a lot of veterens and others let down and disappointed in the anniversary year all for the sake of £75k ???.
Mike E
FirebexIt is absolutely crazy that the IWM want to get rid of the only post-war maritime aircraft in their collection and the only Shackleton displayed in a national collection.
Why do they want rid of it?
It shows how precarious things are that it is possible (though very unlikely i hope) to lose three Shackleton Mk.3s in fairly short order.
The IWM have been approached by a private consortium that I am involved with .We have not only a plan to dismantle and move but a company willing to do it and the budget available.BUT it seems because we are not a listed major collection etc we are not eligeable and therefore the aircrfat risks being made into saucepans.Do they want the aircraft preserving or are they not interested ???>
sorry to drift slightly but Peter knows where I am coming from on this one as we have spoken in the past and we would certainly do whatever we could to help.
Mike E
Firebexgood ideas
It seems as if I have started something here long may it last.
Yes the matter of work hardening and heat treatment does or can come into the issue of aircraft grade aluminium.
If you are just doing static projects and using commercial aluminium the problem rarely raises its ugly head.
What you have to remember if you are working with old recovered/rescued/slavaged original parts that the age hardened issue will be present and trying to straighten out mangled parts can be a problem but we have tended to use a blow lamp liberaly waved over the general area needed to be unbent to get a nice even temperature throu out the material then using a light press etc to unbend crash material etc for example and the results have been reasonable.DONT FORGET if you have material you are working with and you intend to re incorporate it into your build if it has a crack on a fold line or in a cut out to DRILL a small hole at the end of the crack line this will stop it from spreading any further.
On rivets and getting nice neat lines we mark out the panels and on british aircraft you are usualy on a
1 inch spacing for rivets always drill pilot holes in your panels to get the location right and skin pins are a god send to hold panels together prior to final rivetting.
I have a lot of info on file relating to metal working etc ,this includes using English Wheels ,folders and rollers.If anyone needs any help in that area please let me know.
FirebexIts for a good cause, so go bidding crazy!
Great to see you again Mike! How many people thought that the Kraguj was a Whirlwind?… I heard at least a dozen….:D
I wear the T-shirt with pride – many thanks for attending the GNFI
hope to be there with better and bigger things next year !!!
had a great time it was missed by a lot of people I think we should push for more cockpits and airframes to attend.I know there are a lot of guys in the North who could not get to places Like Newark so hows about GNFI 2012 guys ???. Plus I think a couple of warbirds would be nice or other interesting aircraft. Come on now there are at least 10 and a lot more hiding in the folds of this forum who are deeply involved with such machines so come on give them an airing there where other shows on the day a flyby going to or from would be nice.The runway is big I would think most things could drop in !!!
Great event nice people,brilliant evening/night entertainment,fantastic bar and BBQ and band till 3 am. now that was a crime if you missed it !!!!
Firebexaviation art at great north fly in.
Went to the great north fly in with Whirlwind stand and a funny Yugoslavian thing and had a great weekend.
This was even more great because of the generous donation by JT442 of an oil on canvas of the Prototype whirlwind in flight.
Greatly appreciated John.
We intend to auction ithe 3 feet by 2 feet painting over the next 90 days to benifit the project further details on the art section of our web site.
Firebexflanging frame 11
any other requests ??
Mike E
http://www.whirlwindfighterproject.org:diablo::diablo:
FirebexFuselage frames and flanging
Now then how to put a flange onto something like a fuselage frame.
Well you can use the easy way out and snip out the edge of the flange as you fold it over .This will work for you but gives gaps in the flanges and it does not look much like the original.
You can go to the time and trouble and make some wooden formers of the frame you want and work the metal over the edge of the pattern to get your desired end result but it takes a lot of time and does not give a fantastic result.
The only way we have found to get a reasonable result as we are doing multiple frames was to go onto a well known web site again and purchase some fiendish devices called stretchers and shrinkers.Now these things come in all shapes and sizes and also some serious money is asked for some.We shopped around and picked ours up for just under £100 each.You might think its a lot of money but when you think about how many frames in something like a Spitfire how many flanges need making it is well worth the expense.
After a bit of practice you will realise on compound curves you need to stretch the metal in some areas as well as shrink it.On the tools we bought we discovered the jaw depth actually is pretty damn close to the size needed for the average lip.As you feed the metal into the jaws as you pull on the handle a gentle upward force on the material at that point helps in the forming process and for those who are familiar with them we flanged and dished the four main parts of Frame 11 (pilots crash Pylon) on a Spitfire in about 1 hour.
You can see from the pictures the jaws in action in the following post.
FirebexCan someone please advise on the travel lodge special deal etc please PM contact detail sor voucher arrangement etc for Friday and saturday night ?.
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