Is there any historical example – except the case of the German Me-262 vs. American/British/Russian piston-prop fighters – where quantity overwhelmed quality in air warfare?

I am wondering if there is a valid historical example where numerically superior cheap lightweight fighters overwhelmed and defeated more expensive and heavier fighters.

Bucket loads of them on land and at sea, dont see any on air.

So the Swiss evaluation is useful after all…

On kinematic performances Typhoon and Rafale have both the same “potential” due to their common delta canard configuration. The difference will be felt mainly due to the canard placement in subsonic speed regime and transonic-supersonic speed regime, depending on configuration.
It would be more accurate to say that “it’s pretty much aknowledged that the Typhoon T1 supercruises faster than the Rafale F3.”
Currently the Typhoon T1/T2(early version) has a engine that allows it to better exploit these advantages.
It would also be good to take into account the special requirements of Rafale M, B and C due to the fact that Dassault strengthened the airframe to better suit naval operation and strike missions requirement been taken into account from the beginning.
As such it would be interesting to compare the Kinematic performances of the Typhoon 3b circa 2015-2018 to see how real “multi-role” capabilities affect its performances.

As of today, it’s too early to rate the Typhoon’s AESA. Only the Typhoon 3A will be delivered with the option to replace the front end by the AESA dish. The older versions will need a much larger retrofit. As such it’s likely going to take more time for the hardware and software to mature. I do not expect the AESA to be fully operational before 2018 at the earliest. Both radar are likely to use the same generation of processor. They are likely to be off the shelf and open architecture and as such been upgradable every 2-3 years or so.
One might argue that because of a bigger dish, the Typhoon will have a better performance, but such an argument is completely baseless if one doesn’t evaluate the quality of the software, the real power available to the radar, the cooling etc. One of those little problem in physics is that the more power, the higher the heat, the higher the heat the less reliable the hardware and the less accurate the data is.
Have they developed a cooling system that’s leaving enough power left to correctly cool the radar for long range search ? The rotating antenna will also take an extra bit of power. So is the radar in the same philosophy as the M-Scan (see first shoot first)? Well if we’re to believe the Swiss, there is a wide gap between one’s philosophy and reality (BTW the Russian are usually fielding large dish radar in a similar philosophy of long range detection. Must I conclude that most Russian made radar are vastly superior to the one found in F-16 and such ?).
It’s easy to forget that by increasing off boresight detection one limit the overall detection in the opposite way !
The original PESA RBE-2 was an interim solution allowing Thales to develop its software and capabilities, which will not have to be significantly changed for the AESA, reducing risk and cost.
Now if one here can provide me with evidence of coding efficiency, vastly superior power management, cooling management, reliability, versatility etc. Then we will all accept the “widely held opinion” of vast superiority from Mr/Ms Jackonito.

Concerning the pilot workload I saw an higher value for the Typhoon on the evaluation graph. Does it mean the Typhoon has a higher workload, or that the workload is better managed ? It seemed clear for me that the former was the case, but so be it…

Yes Typhoon has a shiny new helmet whose performances are said to be very high. Rafale has nothing similar to offer for the moment. However I wouldn’t get too excited since no evaluation of the helmet as been revealed to the public.
Rafale FSO was quoted among its sensors has been very satisfactory for the Swiss, and that should include the IRST.

The original contract for the 18 Typhoon to be bought by Austria was about 2 billion. That’s about 105.6 m at today’s rate.
They finally bought 15 aircraft at 1.63 billion. That about 108.6 per aircraft including support. So they saved 370 m by buying 3 aircraft less, or 123.3 m per plane. IIRC the support contract was renegociated. But what appear clear to me is that the price of Typhoon T1 if costing only 55 m then Eurofighter is ripping its client off on part and support. Or the price of the T1 is more than 55 m. Either way, that’s quite expansive for a T1 with only “air surveillance” capability which mean no BVR.

Are you sure you really want to keep your assumption that it’s not possible for the Rafale F3 to be 25% cheaper than Typhoon T3b ?

To finish I just can’t get it how it’s possible some are so blinded by propaganda that they cannot see a simple fact. Experience + funding + clear requirements almost always make for a better product. That has nothing to do with patriotism. Jackonito has been preaching the gospel about vastly superior Typhoon is more than 4 volumes, and when proved wrong and cornered we should congratulate him because he finally admit he was day-dreaming ? Come on.
Dassault has been building delta airframe for decades, Rafale is almost a direct upgrade of the Mirage 4000. The AdA and Dassault were able to have much more feedback on the limitation of such a configuration in operational condition thanks to Mirage 2000 (Mirage III) and export customers. It’s simply not surprising they’ve made so little mistakes. Dassault had a small succes with the F1, but they realized that if they were to bring something truly new against the F16 they had to go back to what they were doing best. Microsoft might not be the best out there, but it certainly is the more user friendly, affordable and widely used OS in existence for the general public because of the package it provide. Rafale is arguably the best two engines delta canard currently operational for the same reason (plus the fact that they are working 70% on civil jets with much harder worldwide competition leading to much better management practices than almost 100% defence companies). I’m sure BAE or even the Israeli can teach more than one thing to Dassault and the French about stealth technologies and UAVs as they have done on many subjects.

I have to say that this was a very fine post

This is Other Sensor systems

:confused:

Highly … well… that… Uhhmmm?!

I see zero use in continuing this debate.

X2

AP: Rafale flight test 2008 (Pesa): 6.71
Typhoon RFP 2 Config (AESA): 6.48

DCA : Rafale flight test 2008 (Pesa): 7
Typhoon RFP 2 Config (AESA): 6.49

Wrong.
Read again the document, and check the 2008 topics.

I think your fear is legitimate by what we saw in the past.
Come on, let’s those companies to be imaginative.
Can’t we imagine two program, lets say manned fighters and unmanned drones, one program leaded by Bae and the other by Dassault ?

A Dassault led fighter with RRoyce led engines in conjunction with a BAE led UCAV with Thales avionics?
Throw in an armed “MALE” UAV, couple that with the A400, the C295 and M346 and the European Defense Aerospace Industry is assured for the next 30 years.
Naaaaah, too much common sense…

There is the main difference about unknown objects for the ground control. About aircraft with a transponder/radio not working posing a hazard to other air-traffic or to smuggle something in/out of the country by unauthorized flights of civil aircraft/helicopter are the main reasons for air-policing alerts. In all cases it is about the identifaction of the unknown object at first. That can be done by a F-16A or an Alpha Jet in general. The main difference is just the cost per flight-hour for such a mission.

In geographic terms Portugal is a tiny country, from the Spanish border to Lisbon its around 200 km´s, your typical Airbus or Boeing will be flying at 10000 meters at 900+ km/h, taking off from Beja or Monte Real an Alpha Jet will have a bit of a problem to intercept something flying at that altitude/speed before it reaches the “Assembleia Nacional” or the “Palácio de Belém” (nevermind the Air Force Headquarters :D). The Viper are bought, payed and will be flogged to their last ounce of “life”, with luck the Air Force will be getting the cheapest (second hand) available replacement after 2025.
Without luck some chaps are going to the airbase at Sintra to evaluate one of these two:

(The Air Force Museum is in Sintra)