I have copy his junk, and save on my PC. Here is what he said:
Take note he did’nt say 100% increase, but instead use 1% RCS & 99% lower.
I have the utmost disrespect for this clueless troll, that mistakenly come up with the FULL LOAD argument in the hope that is going to convince anyone even more dumb.
Oh, and then we have the “I’m a Brazilian Legislative Government officer” argument,
and then they wonder why we disrespect politicians :rolleyes:
Well, having discussed with Pepe i can say that i have the utmost respect for him, even when he´s wrong, everyone is intitled to make mistakes, and he´s no “politician”, he´s too blunt to be one.
@ Scorpion82 : at least £37 billion by 2018 is the figure I find in every audit I was able to read done in the uk. If you have any other sources I would glad to read them. And of course we are talking about the cost of the program since it was launched. However I never saw any sources saying it was to be the cost until the end of the program. The aircraft is suppose to remain operational for at least 30 years so nobody knows exactly how much will cost mid life upgrade and so on.
@ Sintra : Exact numbers are difficult to find and depend wheather you include development cost or not. The bristish MoD has decided to classified the actual cost of the Typhoon in order to help export but recent audit are talking about £200 milion including R&D and about £90 to £125 milion without. (Of course if anyone managed to get the exact figure I would be glad to see them thanks in advance…)Here is a exemple of how to be dishonnest. The report said 2018 is when the Typhoon is expected to be “fully” able in A/G. I never said that the Typhoon wasn’t able to do some A/G “now”… But it isn’t able to do so “fully” which mean you won’t see any Typhoons dropping bombs on the first day of conflict anyday soon. Now I would be very glad to see any info that says otherwise rather than more empty claims.
Mildave
I´ve read every NAO “Ministry of Defence: The Major Projects Report” for the last decade, and i´ve read severall times the NAO “Management of the Typhoon Project” document.
The RAF Typhoon program costs have been declassified almost three years ago.
The audit that you are mentioning (“Management of the Typhoon Project” in here: http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/1011/management_of_typhoon_project.aspx) doesnt present any set of numbers for a “Typhoon cost without R&D” (no document from NAO does). Actually it doesnt present any number for a “Typhoon cost with R&D”, the smalest number present in that document is for a Phoon with “assessment, development, production and
upgrade costs” through its entire operational life.
And scorpion (wich has read the document) is completely correct.
Those numbers of yours are waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy off the mark.
There is no evidence you’ve seen of the contrary, too. So what ? Is that enough to dismiss the arguments you dislike ?
Nobody said the Rafale is a LO design, not even Dassault. Significant work has been done on RCS reduction where that matters, no more, no less. Some features are clearly visible to naked eyes, others are not, and the end result is said to be 1/10th to 1/20th that of a Mirage 2000.
The question is whether Eurofighter did such an extensive job in RCS reduction. They claim they did, of course, yet they managed to tell us that Typhoon RCS is 1/8 that of the Tornado. That put it in the F-16 league, with Mirage 2000, Gripen and Super Hornet doing better (to name a few).It turns out that the 50 km range difference that was translated to 10x lower RCS reminded me of all that old stuff. Add to that many press releases that keep telling Rafale RCS is lower, and you begin to have a hard time to dispute what become increasingly obvious.
There’s no evidence per se, but there’s an increasing string of clues…
What is available on the public domain only tell us that the two aircrafts use very similar technologies and techniques to reduce its RCS.
The two aircrafts use serpentine S ducted inlets, frequency selective surface materials in the radar redome, radar reflector canopy´s, a liberal aplication of RAM throught the airframe and thats about it.
Trying to imply that somehow Dassault obtained such a massive advantage (a 10X reduction) from a team who had previously worked on a LO design (part of the MBB team that worked in Lampyridae ended up in the signature reduction department of Eurofighter) using identical techniques and technologies is, has i´ve said before, counter-intuitive.
About clues, there are severall articles in the specialized and generalistic press who contradict those “clues” that you´ve mentioned, i can remember multiple articles in the likes of air international, and AFM through the eighties, nineties and the new century that again and again stated that the Typhoon was designed with the lowest frontal RCS of every combat aircraft in service or about to enter service bar the Raptor, that includes the RAFALE, if you chose to believe them or on the articles that you´ve mentioned before, i think thats more a question of faith/preference than any realistic data.
Speaking plainly trying to guess wich of the two aircrafts has a smaller RCS using public available data its impossible, that data is nowhere to be found.
.
Now if it was down to cost only the rafale at ~$80 would already have won against the ~$125 and rising fast Typhoon.
Those numbers are completely off.
We’ve also seen another source that claims that Rafale has (full load vs full load) 1% RCS (IIRC) of SH too, upthread*.
Lets put it bluntly, the Brasilian sources (actually source) about the Rafale having 1/100 RCS of the SH are wrong.
I have the utmost respect for the ex-journalist that made that statement (i am actually owing him a bottle of port for a few years), but i am quite sure that he misread the FAB report, its easy to confound a 100% increase (2x RCS) for 100X.
No. He meant what he said.
We’re not on a 25% difference. The gap is actually *much* larger but nobody would believe it, so discussing this matter is just a waste of time.
Not actually its not, the technologies and the solutions used by the two manufacturers are identical, but i think you are correct on one thing, this matter is a waste of time, for the next 30 we are not going to see RCS charts for these two aircrafts.
BTW the semi-recessed carriage of the AMRAAM is peanuts as far as the overall RCS is concerned.
Precisely, if seen from the lower frontal arc an underwing amraam carriage (or for that matter a MICA) has a bloody bigger RCS foot print than a semi recessed one.
L
Some should just accept the fact and move on . The Typhoon has other means .
Now , the RCS difference is probably not that big , but big enough to make a 40-50km difference in detection range with an AtoA load , which is a big advantage in most scenarios . If both aircraft have an heavy AtoG load , the difference should be much smaller .
A 50 kms range diference between the two aircrafts, everything else being equal, would imply a (roughly) 10X bigger RCS. Thats counter intuitive.
Make this deal a unfair way (for the L1) would be a very strong tactical success for Eurofighter but it will be a HUGE strategical disaster for Europe!
It would be a disaster for Dassault, not for Europe.
Kovy says you could almost fit the moon in Rafale’s radome, a size which should be adequate for those Meteors:
Couldnt fail to notice that in this last page there are a few seriously beautiful photos!
That is gorgeous. 🙂
I changed because too many relatives new I was arthuro so I preferred the compfort of a more anonymous name. As simple as that;)
I had asked myself where were you.
Might disagree with you some times, but “Arthuro” was one of those posters who were well worth to read.
Air&Cosmos is not always friendly to dassault to say the least. The issue reported was with the stom-shadow.
Now I bring the piece of info and its up to everyone to make an opinion.
Oh sorry, didnt read this post before answering…
They are right (sort off), the problem might not be separation “per se”, the problem is lack of space on the intended pylons. The two internal pylons in the wings dont have enough space in relation to the landing gear.
In theory using the same pylons that are used with the external fuel tanks solves this problem, but it creates another, lack of fuel.
It is more than just increment development. Just this week Air&Cosmos reveals that one of the reason that delay integration of heavier weapons on the typhoon (above financial restriction) is that the separation with the aircraft is problematic and risky. To overcome this issues a significant work must be done.
That clearly shows that some issues with the AtG role were not anticipated from the outset as explained in the quote from Pprune above.
Then this week Air&Cosmos just printed a lot of XXXXXX. Its not the first time, it was the same source that a few of the french posters were using not too long ago (a few weeks actually) stating that the separation tests of the PII were restricted to a clean (not using fuel external tanks) Typhoon.
AFAIK the first separation tests of the 1000 L external fuel tanks in the air were done in 2001. You dont get much bigger than that.
or when the Rafale was out of the MMRCA Competition just a few months back???:rolleyes:
Oh brilliant. The diference is that this time its official…
The SH and the Viper lost, get over it.
It is a fact. It has been stated in the past that Rafale was the No.1 on the list after technical evaluation. Now, considering the price is also lower, the only think EF has going for itself are the industrial offsets.
Its trolling. You specficaly stated bribes, thats trolling AND flame baiting.
I recall reading that domestic production actually increased per unit MKI cost….
AFAIK that was the case, in the Hawk deal (or the Jaguar) it was the oposite.