SintraAnd this would be based upon what information?:rolleyes:
The first sentence is backed up by at least four diferent Eurofighter GMBH, RAF and Esercito del Aire official documents (the 2006 Eurofighter presentation to the Norwegian Air Force pdf, by example) , the public declarations of severall Greek, Norwegian, Italian, Portuguese and at least one USAF Viper block50/52 pilot and Typhoon instructor at 17(R) sqn, Maj. Paul Carlton .
There are severall things that a armed Typhoon does that no clean Viper will do, 250 NM plus a 30 minute backup at mach 1.2/1.3 without AB (8 AAM´s), 6 G´s at 50000 feet, Mach 1.6 without loosing speed (8 AAM´s and one external tank), etc, etc, etc…
The old BAE EAP with the two RB199 and the six “surrogate” AAM´s would actually beat a clean Block 50/52 in climb rate, maximum speed, accelaration above 15000 feet and a few more items.
SintraThe first article is from when they first became operational, the cracking issues were fixed by 2005 I think. The second article refers to that same issue quite a bit too. I haven’t heard much about the spare parts issue, maybe it isn’t an issue here in Britain since they’re built here, for all I know the Canadian spare parts might have been diverted to our Merlin’s in Iraq.
Apart from that I hadn’t heard of any significant issues with the British versions except that they hadn’t trained enough crews to fly them. That’s not an issue with the helicopter though.
The issue of the Danish engine braking was blamed on an unavailability of spare and too few qualified repair crews. It looks like it was mainly the Danes fault for waiting until the last minute to order spare and not properly training their crews (as shown by the higher availability rates now).
The Portuguese Air Force had (still has) some major problems with the Merlins, spare parts delivery timings and so on. Not too long ago the Merlin fleet was almost completely grounded, last year we had to re activate five of our old Pumas (we are talking of Helis that made the Colonial wars in the seventies!).
And they use the RTM322…
SintraPlease, not another “VS” thread. If so, make a Typhoon vs F-18 or This Radar “VS” That Radar thread or something.
No need to worry, i really, really, really dislike “VS” threads…
SintraI love this…
Can anyone bring me a RCS chart for the Typhoon and another one for the Super Bug?
And can anyone show the numbers for the ANAPG-79 versus CAPTOR?
I just love the word “facts” and the way it has been used in this topic…
Sintra:rolleyes:
yes if you can lift couplle of toons of harm along in the air… the ground has all the advantages for heavyweight missile ,and strong power outputs.
48N6E2 missile has 1830 KG.
40N6 missile with 400km range planned ,over 2,3 tonns.:dev2:36D6 for target detection ,can use with pulse compression, to pull out over
1200 kw of power!:eek:
You have just provided the perfect example of why historicaly, the aerial element has always got “through”.
To face ARM´s in the ALARM, HARM class, the Soviets first, then the Russians were forced to go to the 1,5 to 2 tons SAM´s, now care to imagine the size/weight of something made to counter something like a ARM variation of the Taurus/JASSM? 8 to 10 Tons?
And what is the NEZ of a 2,3 ton 40N6 missile against a highly agile Mach 1.5 flyer? Because 400 km is the ballistic range… Divide those 400 km´s by something like four and it shouldnt too far off…
Finaly, the 1200 kw his just a very fine way of making a huge Neon saying “Look i´m here”, it´s not gona cross mountains , it´s not gonna make the earth flat, and without AEW backup, the 20/25 seconds “alarm window” against “nap of the earth” subsonic low flyers is still there.
SintraI am certainly no expert on such matters but was just thinking a bit about the issue of using rwrs as emisson detectors and now as targeting sensors. Modern aircraft such as the Rafale, Typhoon, F-18E/F all claim such devices.
I can understand the use of passive detection/targeting by stealth aircraft, which can detect at long range, enter detection zones of enemy a/c/SAM radars, do their bit and get away.
But how practical is it for non stealthy aircraft? The probability of their detection before they can launch missiles is much higher, especially since VLRAAMs are not yet available.
Consider an advanced S-300 type system with long range detection and missiles. Can a rafale or super hornet (after detecting the big bird emissions) actually do anything about it? These a/c will need to get within 200km at least to launch ARMS to be really effective. In that distance, there is a good chance that they’ll be facing some incoming SAMs. Launching outside the 200km zone will mean almost certain interception of subsonic missiles. Even within the 200km range, they have an uphill battle against SAMS that are much faster. Plus the low level interceptors like Buk/Tunguska. May be with a growler package they could jam the radars? But by themselves what can they really do?
It is said that the S-300 was compromised when NATO was able to practice against Slovak SAMs, resulting in jammers that can overcome this system. Can a stand off jammer carried by a fighter defeat the bigbird/tombstone?
All in all, whats the point of the passive detectors on 4.5 gen birds? They know where the S-300 is, but an AWACS can give you that info as well. Ditto with enemy fighters. I can see great use of this technology in stealth a/c. But for 4-4.5 gen birds?
Very nice topic here 🙂
In terms of SAM´s, we can have a 200/300 km range SAM, but what about it´s NEZ?
At what range the weapon becames a non manouvering high speed dart? Divide the total range of the weapon by something like four, and it wont be very far away of the actual NEZ of rocket propeled SAM´s.
Sudendly those SH, Rafales, Eagles, Flankers, etc, start looking pretty dangerous, dont they? 😉
Then another question arises, at what distance a land radar detecs a low flying high speed object (a fighter and/or ARM)?
On a completely flat surface, the Sea, for subsonic sea skimmers, you have something like 20/25 seconds of warning before you get hit by something, on a hilly terrain, with the propper weapons and tactics, the SAM operators might very well only have a few warnings before getting showered with PGM´s.
In the Kinematic fight between the air launched and land/sea launched weapon, for the same NEZ, the SAM has to be a LOT bigger than the ARM, so the air has all the advantages…
The “Double Digit´s”, Asters, Thaads, etc, are not magic bullets. Against a competent foe they have to be integrated on a networked system to be effective, if not, they are just “cannon foder” for the next Viper/Fulcrum/Apache caming along.
SintraYes, thx.
However, what this CECAR exactly is? Risk-reduction CAESAR?! What’s that?Cheers, Cola
CECAR was the program that produced CAESAR. It was a multi step program to pave the way for an operational AESA set for the “Phoon”, CAESAR was just one of the steps, a prototype.
What this means his that industry has declared that it feels confident that it can deliver AESA sets for the four NETMA partners (and exports).
SintraWell, I’d agree but only if you can show me a prior aircraft that combines VSTOL, Stealth and supersonic performance, not to mention the best sensor suite/situational awareness available.
When it hits IOC (that´s 2017/18 for the RAF/RN) you might very well find out that the “Stealth” and “Situational awareness” part have been thrown out of the window.
SintraGuys, I admire your energy level to even comment on these films :D. I mean its humiliating, even intelligence insulting, for eventual buyers (and I think this could prove to be a serious problem, if LM maintains such an apporach).
Btw, just red in local military newspaper that Euroradar completed testing and process of fitting?! (very unclear news) of CAESAR in EF at the beginning of this month. So, I went to EF official page and was nothing there…Anyone knows more on this? Thx.
Cheers, Cola
Cola
I do imagine that they were talking about this EADS release:
http://www.eads.com/1024/en/pressdb/pressdb/20090506_eads_defence_de_amsar.html
Cheers
Sintraokay..
so in the F-35 video, the Typhoon gets shot down by a Flanker
in the Flanker video, the Typhoon gets shot down by a Flanker:diablo:
I await a French video.
The Typhoon will be shot by a Dewoitine 520 😀
Cheers 🙂
SintraOne IRST with a limited search and track angle against a system that covers the whole aircraft from all angles. No chance for the Diephoon.
Another round of my “di…” his bigger than your “d…” 😡
SintraNot if you consider the price. EF offers nothing important over the F-16, whike it costs more as F-35.
Except vastly superior performance above 3000 meters on every single dinamic parameter and a vastly superior Radar…
Two quite important items when you spent 90% doing CAP and having simulated knife fights at high altitude with your biggest neighbour right over the Aegean.
And on costs, check the recently official numbers released by the German MOD for the Tiffie T1 and then cross it with the LRIP F-35…
SintraTake one Typhoon. Remove engines, avionics, undercarriage & other internal bits. Discard radar antenna. Add swash plate AESA array. Build new, stealthy airframe round the lot. Modify FCS to cope with new airframe.
Develop & test any avionics & engine improvements, & integrate new weapons, on the existing Typhoon airframe, while designing & building the new airframe. Carry over to new aircraft. Do the mechanical integration of weapons as soon as flight testing has progressed sufficiently.
Call it Tempest. :diablo:
Convince Gordon Brown to fund it… That´s the tricky part… :dev2:
SintraOf course you are right. One has to be careful – but I just love a little speculation (that’s what a forum is for, isn’t it? keeping things open and out of the box), and I see the offload scenario as pretty realistic. There are simply too many airframes and not enough quids in the system. Having the big three in EU-land (FRG, FRA, UK) operate 150 frontline fast jets each is a realistic future scenario in my mind.
Concerning those others – España and Deutschland: It’s not like either of them has a lot of money left for toys. Spain has around 80 Hornets and F1 in its frontline units and I see that they might bitch about reduced numbers and warping the workshare agreement cause they’ll take their full share – but hey! let them have more 400M work and they’ll be fine.
But Germany? They might also have 20 or so they could offload to non-consortium states. The Arabs might go for the full 72, and India is also not yet decided, for example. Room for compromises, in my mind.Money is just so thight now, and it will become even tighter till fall, that everybody will be just too happy to reduce defense related expenditures. I can also dream up a scenario where EADS will be forced to count the 400M delay against a drop in total Eurofighter numbers, as part of some penalty.
Oh, I see.
Being honest, the idea of using the A400M fiasco has a “discussion leverage” never crossed my mind! It´s an interesting idea… If that happened BAE Systems would probably demand Tom Enders head on a plate! :diablo:
Cheers
Sintra“In a notable concession, the three other nations have also agreed to let the UK count part of an earlier export order to Saudi Arabia towards its quota, thereby cutting down the number it needs to pay for now from 40 to 16 jets.”
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1395175&postcount=38
No.2 is hoped to be Oman.
Text taken from an article in AW, by Andy Nativi and Douglas Barrie.
Now i am aware that Douglas Barrie has some wonderful connections in the British MOD, and he is one of the best informed journos (along with Jon Lake and a few others) about the entire Eurofighter Program… BUT just two months ago the British “Saudi offloading scenario” was being flat out refused by the Germans and the Spaniards.
What has happened in the last month and a half?
I would take caution before something official cames out, the latest news indicates that the four partners are discussing 112 fighters for the Tranche 3a and the problems that the British MOD his having with HM Treasury are well known. IF the British MOD had been sucessfull with it´s bid to convince it´s partners that the offload of almost two thirds of this “T3A” order to the Saudis was a good thing, i would imagine that by now the production contract would already been signed.
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