Sadly it seems this is never the case even though its what is always promised as they, the manufacturer always find ways to bump the price up and rip off the customer.

RAND has a nice (400+ pages) about precisely that…
For the last two decades the USAF has had to contend with a 10% inflation every year for the acquisition of it´s fighter force.

Yes but when will it be ready ? The Rafale and Gripen are much closer to getting an AESA.

CHECK YOUR SOURCES…

You are correct on the Dassault Rafale, but not on the Swedish Fighter.
Now please can you tell me when the SAAB Gripen his suposed to receive an AESA set?

The German defense MOD has already funded part of the CAESAR demonstrator and has allocated budget for receiving the first operational sets in 2012. Wich by the way his the date that industry in the form of EUROFIGHTER GMBH has proposed for the delivery of the dam CAPTOR E to the four partners, Saudi Arabia AND INDIA.

Got it now?

There’s this topic:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2863.0

Paul (Overscan)

Thanks Paul

The P116 was a real beauty, but for sheer “drop dead good looks” there was nothing that beat the P1216… An old favorite of mine.

Can anyone scan and post any pictures of the P.112 and P.116 projects from the 1980s.

Jack

Here you go:
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1991/1991%20-%200428.html

If i am not mistaken there´s was a fine topic about P112/116 in secret projects (where else?) with a few very nice images posted by overscan (who else?).

Cheers

I was talking strictly BVR and currently the APG 80 should hold an edge over the Captor, the reports are varying according to F 16 Vs EF thread in the F 16 forum, when (and if) the EF gets an AESA it will be different.

What advantage the AN/APG80 has over the CAPTOR in the BVR ATA scenario?!! Range it´s not…

Hello to all of you highly opinionated people!

I have read RAAFs evaluation brief that was prepared very early in 2007. RAAF evaluated Rafale, EF2k, F/A18E/F, Su-35, Gripen and F-16 Blk52+/60 to fulfill AIR 5349 (Bridging Air Combat Capability) requirement until F-35 Lightening II arrives and as the replacement for Aardvarks. Straightaway, RAAF wanted F-22 but the US outrightly rejected export of F-22 and passed congressional resolution to ban the sale and even know-how to even their close allies Japan, Israel and Australia (our defence white-paper outlines use of US nuclear deterrence as part of Australian defence calculations). RAAF pilots have flown all the above-mentioned types (except the GenV aircrafts) and had detailed reports on the viabilities (in every theatre/mode) and capabilities of the said aircrafts. Typhoon was the clear winner. Its MMI was light years in front of the nearest rival the Dassault aircraft.

Rafale is strong in Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Air is secondary strength. F-16, Gripen and SH have little improvement over F/A-18 legacy Hornets that already serve RAAF. Su-35 Terminator prototype just rolled out and RAAF really like it after both our northerly neighbors Malaysia and Indonesia have MK variants of Su-30 (still slightly inferior to MKI). After a very short wait SH was selected and the only reason SH was selected was due to the pressure from Boeing and US. Dassault rep was invited on a TV debate and he was furious that ‘fair’ treatment was not rolled-out to them. The other losers EADS, Knaapo, SAAB and LM did not even bother coming over to Oz. RAAF evaluated all competitors at their parent bases. Rafale was evaluated at Orange; EF2K was evaluated at Moron, Waddington, and Patrica-di-Mare; Gripen was evaluated at ETPS using the latest variant that were being tested from SAAF and Hungarian AF and F-16 was evaluated at Fort Worth.

All evaluation came to the same conclusion that Typhoon must be purchased and public apathy was the reason why their was no independent evaluation or any public outcry of this very hasty decision. Boeing and other US military manufacturers/sellers have the main two-party Australian legislature in their pocket. So much so that McDonnell Douglas did not even supply the basic specs for the radar and other components on the F/A-18 A&B version that McDD (and later Boeing) used to come over to RAAF bases to upgrade the navigation software on the Hornets so the plane could be flown to Red Flag and Green flag and cross the international dateline. First time it happened the nav computers went on fritz. But no one talks about it. The yanks have us by the balls. TUDM (Tentera Udara DiRaja Malaysia, Royal Malaysian Air Force) flies Hornets upgraded to C&D versions and have more control over their hardware and software than the RAAF. RAAF and TUDM train together at Butterworth AFB in Malaysia where RAAF have a permanent station. And US restrictions are a bloody annoyance to RAAF pilots.

Well the reason for the above long explanation is to inform you that please do not discount EF2k from the running. If IAF wants the best progressive aircraft (sans the cost of the craft) that is a true bridge to GenV, then Typhoon must win and will win.

If:

• Kickbacks of any kind are not involved;
• Selection process is transparent;
• Evaluators make the best choice based on abilities present and future (EADS has offered to make India a partner country);
• IAF wants the best aircraft for its’ pilots and does not get swayed away to please the Yanks as Indian love to do it (case-in-point the Mumbai massacre – cannot even defend your own citizens);

IAF will select EF2k and nothing else, least of all F-16 which US has used as stocking fillers for every country that it gives military alms (bheekh). Countries who realized the obvious and hence co-funded and ordered F-15SG (Singapore), F-15 SlamEagle (Korea), F-15I Ra’am (Israel), F-15J (Japan) and Chink-Kuo (Taiwan).

So, please wake-the-f-up. Just because US is calling India a friend does not mean that we must buy F-16 the fighter that was denied to IAF in the 80s. Maybe you guys do not know that Pres Johnson and Nixon denied IAF F-16 and offered F-5 and even encouraged UK to sell English Electric Lightning to IAF that US was willing to subsidise. Yet they gave it to Pak as part of the Peace Gate military package who then wired it to drop nukes on India (helped by TAI).

We must start an online campaign on discussion forms like these and encourage discussion that may/might influence the correct people. Otherwise, few Babus will get rich and we will be stuck with it an old and obsolete fighter like Solah. EF unit cost might be expensive across the board but that is only because not many have been sold. European nations like Poland and Greece selected EF but in the end settled for F-16 because of US pressure. But Saudis selected EF and Singaporean selected F-15 over Rafale because EF could not meet the delivery dates.

Please Indians, my brothers – do not make the mistake. Stand up for yourselves and make your leaders accountable for what they do as it is supposed to happen in a democracy. We need to stand up for ourselves and not look at the US (they are in every issue for their own reason). We need to make Pak accountable for Mumbai. US did more investigation for their 6 dead than we did for our 170. They makeup excuses to attack people/countries (as Dubya said that Saddam tried to kill his father), but we cannot defend our honor when strangers come inside our house and kicked in our balls.

SunnyFromOz.

Sunny

That evaluation that you´ve read, it has all the marks of the (circa 2000, wich by the way it´s coherent with the “SU-35 Terminator” being “rolled out” and being a bit inferior to the MK´s) AIR6000 study that ended in the JSF selection, and not AIR 5349.
And having read for myself a bit about how the Typhoon was marketed in OZ (and a few other places) your conclusions seems to be a bit overoptimistic (to say the least).

Look lets put things into prospective
iran had a good airforce the best in the middle east in 1979 certainly their f-14 crews are very good, the f-14a was a good platform now old even older f-4’s and 5’s all this mombo jumbo is crap saddam tried it and failed instead of waiting money i think iran should seriosly turn to russia for su-33 + technology i know thier mig-29 experience was not good it wasnt good in the iraqi airforce either
my expert advice is to stop waisting money and go for su-33 or rafale/gripen

Rafale? Gripen?!

And after that Iran his invited to the JSF consortium!

The possibilities of a high capability western fighter flying in IRIAF colours for the next decade, decade and a half are smaller than NORAD actually intercepting SANTA.

Cheers

How about some graphic illustration or expert opinion validating your point :confused:

See the Video typhoon 1 posted in the last page. And tell me that they are flying bricks.

Ante_climax

I´m aware that you really like the “Block60/70 Indian Viper”, and if the offense his the expression “flying brick”, than i will retreat it.
I will substitute by something like “stacked against the competition in the international market it´s not a particulary good flyer”.

Does it matter? Probably not! At least in the competition that you are particulary “aware/close”, the IAF MRCA.
Albeit being touted has a substitute for the Mig-21 in the Indian Air Force, it seems that the operational requirements aim squarely for the role that his fulfiled by the M2000/Jaguar/Mig27. And that was precisely the kind of mission that the Block60 was designed to do (bomb something deep inside Iran while having the ability to deter/destroy every aerial oposition that the IRIAF throws at him). The Block 60 or the IDF/AF Soufas are what we could call the f/A-16.

About the “expert opinion”, i wasn´t been a “wise guy” when i spoke of Roy Braybrook, Spey, Riccioni, etc, i simply assumed that they would be something of “well known names” in an aircraft forum!
My bad, sorry for that.
It´s bloody dificult to sumarize two and a half decades of “paper sources” (i have a huge library, that includes by example, almost every Air international that was produced since june 1987, and i would advise the book “fighter fundamentals” that was distributed by Key Publishing), contacts with defense journos, with pilots, with industry commercials, techs, etc. And no, i am not a defense industry analist, professional, whatever. I am just an information collector. And i dont have a Nationalistic “Burguer” point of view, the only aerial “thing” that we have in Portugal (besides of OGMA) it´s the cork industry (when it goes “pop” on a wine bottle)

Returning to Spey, Riccioni, et all. They are what his called the “light weight fighter Mafia” and they are the “intelectual fathers/mothers/the all family” of the Viper, just Google and you will find their thoughts on the latest versions of the plane (and forget everything they said about the Raptor).
About Roy Braybrook, 30 years of designing and selling “death and destruction” in the form of the Harrier, Hawk, Jaguar, then twenty more years has a defense journo. Go to “Armada International”, year 2004, Issue 2/2004, “The Complete Guide to Air Defence”, page 2. (http://www.armada.ch/archive/2004.cfm)

There are also severall interviews with pilots from severall air forces that confirms the performance “descending curve” that the latest Block´s had. You can find them in the likes of Air Forces Monthly, Flight Global, etc, severall of them have already been mentioned.

Adding to what i´ve mentioned before, you can alway´s look at the operational SQN´s profiles and missions of the “Desert Falcon” and “Soufa”. In the two cases they are strike fighters first with a secondary ATA mission (albeit a robust one). In the case of the IDF/AF the “air defence job” his an Eagle thing, in the UAE it´s a Dash-9 area of “expertise”.

Finishing, if there´s one person who thinks that the Viper his one of those planes that belongs to legend, the likes of the spitfire, the Mustang, the Sabre, the Concord, etc, that´s me. It was an aircraft that marked an era, it was the best of the best in aeronautical technology for a very LOOONG time, in it´s latest blocks it still his a dam good plane, a highly capable one and a very fine contribution to any Order of Battle, and i am one of those that thinks that the USAF could very well have a few more hundreds of them…

But you cant add four tons of empty weight, and every sort of collection of draggy extrusions and pretend that the flight envelope it´s the same of the YF-16, it´s not.

And if i looked like a “wise guy” before, sorry…

Cheers