Deino (thanks) just stuck in Facebook a few images of a J-16 with a pair of HUGE AAM´s(?)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]249828[/ATTACH]

AAM?
ASAT?
ARM?

Any idea?

Saab use to produce the best Eu cars and sell them all over the world (sorry to the UK reader). Management of alliances and wishful thinking closed the plants down at an astonishing pace.

And thats relevant for this discussion in what way?

We don’t though. At best we know what the Brazilian state is paying Saab, with the (unknown) balance going to Embraer. That’s the only way to explain an off-the-shelf order from Switzerland costing as much as (or more than) a local assembly/production deal with Brazil.

No.
The main contractor is SAAB who sub contracts Embraer, AKAER, etc.
The Switzerland deal has nothing to do with it, we dont know the kind of suport that the Schweizer Luftwaffe asked, and for how long. And yes, the Gripen Brasilian contract was described in detail by the Brasilian MOD at the time, and yes, i am a Portuguese speaking native.

A great cheer for the RAF, they are going to field, not five, not seven, but eight front line Phoon sqns!
The entire discussion of how many T1’s would remain in service and for how long has ended, all of them and untill the end of their airframe lives.
Good news.

When they bolt all that stuff to Gripen, I don’t think it’s going to be that cheap anymore.
Seems obvious that F/A-18E/F is the cheapest, but probably isn’t in production anymore in 2022…

No, in this particular case we have hard data, we have the official numbers for Brasil Gripen acquisition and we have the FMS letter describing Boeing offer in that same competition, its not even close, the Swedish offer was vastly cheaper.

CPFH cost estimations for the F-35 have actually gone down in recent years as experience is gained and real world costs can be calculated.

Correct, and?

btw, the JSF SAR is looking at real world (2008-2010) F-16 costs. The data that you pointed to was from 2 years ago and only covered just that one year.

No, it was from last year, and if you want i cant point to multiple Viper CPFH from multiple years, all of them with inferior numbers to the ones on that SAR document…
Off course that CAPE covered its posterior with this “Comparing the costs of the 5th Generation F-35 to legacy aircraft is challenging.”

The SAR report covers the entire program.

Precisely, and i´ve been reading the SAR documents from a very long time, and i did started doing that whit another program, the ATF, and i noticed that there´s quite a lot of optimism on it.

While you are entitled to your own opinion, the FACT is that a “bare fighter” cost of a Rafale (as offered to India) is more than a “Flyaway” FY2017 F-35, by $4 mil per airframe.

“FACT”?! Thats a very strong word Spud…
You have the official documents signed between the two MOD´s? If so, please show the documents. Or are you quoting an Indian newspaper that quoted unnamed Indian MOD oficials?
If there´s someone here who is entirely aware that there´s absolutely no comparison between an Indian order and a JSF Flyaway unit cost thats you.
When the JSF get´s to the point in wich its costs are comparable to their main competitors then LM and the JPO will trumpet it for everyone to ear,

What happens after 3 years? Wouldn’t you still need to increase your overall F-35 purchase by 200.. just do it later?

Much, much later, late thirties. And i am willing to bet that it would be a lot cheaper to acquire two hundred F-35´s to replace those last Vipers in the late thirties than to acquire two hundred of whatever platform will be used to replace the Raptor.

And you would have seen this problem had you actually paid attention to the USAF’s assessment of the number of F-22’s needed for the mission. Even the smallest number with the highest risk was still 100+ more than what they currently have. In the absence of the F-22A, and in the absence of them actually floating requirements to increase F-35 procurement #’s to offset the outgoing #s, where else would the USAF pull that need from? You have three ways to do this –

1 – Build more F-22A’s – Most expensive option – This is AFA’s position / solution and it entails building an export cleared F-22B.

2 – Simply buy more F-35s to cover for outgoing F-15C’s and E’s – This will be expensive based simply on the acquisition cost alone, but also becasue you currently have a packed and sustained full rate of production that kicks in in the early 2020’s and lasts for more than a decade. Getting more aircraft in while at the same time doing so over a simialr time-frame would mean higher annual program spend. This isn’t really an option with the bow-wave due in less than a decade and with the budget outlook looking the way it currently does.

3 – Extend F-15 service life by performing a life extension and upgrades to stay relevant – The least expensive of the three options and exactly what the USAF is currently executing since they don’t have the budget flexibility to go for option 1 or option 2.

In case a space is made in the budget they will no doubt look at the first two options. In fact AFA in its advisory to the new GOTUS is proposing a budget increase to allow for option 1.

Secondly, the requirements change over time. They all do since there are decades in between when you last looked at your ‘problems’ and designed a sollution compared to when you do it decades later for a time period that looks out decades into the future. The PCA is pacific focused and reflects what a 2020 USAF sees as its requirements going into the 2030’s and beyond. Simialrly, the F-22A reflected what the USAF thought it needed in 1991 for missions in the 2000’s. Needs and the technology’s ability to create unique opportunities has a deep impact on where the requirements go since we are talking about offenisve systems designed to operate thousands of miles from CONUS.

As mentioned before, PCA is a complementary capability..It provides CA in areas where the Penetrating Strike and Penetrating ISR aircraft operate. Unless their thinking changes it isn’t a one for one replacement for either the F-22 or F-15 but more of a complementary capability that supports long range penetrating missions.

The time frame between fielding a generation of aircraft and entering the pre-development (academic study and official AOA) phase of the next generation system with the F-22 and PCA is actually fairly close to the F-15 – F-22 transition. Also note that the F-16C was in engineering development phase when the YF22 first flew.

Bring

Another alternative, the USAF could simply upgrade two hundred Vipers and keep them on their sqn´s for (roughly) three more years into the late thirties and divert two hundred F-35A´s to replace the C/D Eagles. It would be vastly cheaper, the Viper airframes are a lot younger and are much cheaper to upgrade.