RE: Australia’s refugee problem

Shorty

I think you are right about the attitude of many refugees.

Some of the more heavily populated parts of Australia have been experiencing serious crimes committed by certain ethnic groups, particularly those from some parts of the middle east and Asia.

It is a problem that occurs every where around the world, when different cultures come together. I don’t know what the solution is, but deportation of serious criminals should be an option.

Late last year, a large number of asylum seekers were taken on board the S.S. “Tampa” and the matter received world wide attention. Many of the refugees demanded to go to Australia and when told that would not happen, they turned nasty. Some refused to leave a bus in Nauru when they were landed, and they put on a show for the world media which was watching. Some of them are supposed to have stated that Australia’s treatment of them was worse than they had experienced in their own country. I don’t know if that really happended or not.

In Sydney recently, a number of Lebanese youths were found guilty of a series of pack rapes, and the case has been heavily reported in the local media. Much of the anger about these cases is the fact that race appears to have been a major factor in the selection of the victims. This doesn’t help racial relations in Australia at all and Lebanese, being predominantly Muslim, are finding that Australians don’t like or trust them very much. Most of the Lebanese youths were actually born in Australia, which makes the situation a bit harder to understand.

This sort of thing is being made worse by the general distrust of Muslims after September 11 and the goings on in Palestine and Israel.

I’m sure Australians would be more prepared to accept asylum seekers if some of them weren’t so arrogant and demanding.

The Wombat

RE: Australia’s refugee problem

This reply is for both Minmiester and Mongu, addressing Min first.

I accept your apology and acknowledge your graciousness in doing so.
Yes, some of the things you said were very pointed and for a while, my blood temperature was raised. I read through your mail a couple of times to get my head around what you were saying before responding and deliberately chose not to try to offend you. I hope I was successful in that.

I can accept that we share widely differing views of the Australian immigration policy. I imagine that, if we met face to face to debate the issue, we would still disagree on key points. That’s life.

I do however, think you sell the Australian population at large short if, and I stress if, you attribute the last election win to the immigration issue on the basis of fear. As I said in my memo, I voted on more critical issues, such as the state of our economy, the ineffectiveness of the opposition, and their appalling history of financial mismanagement of our country during their last term. A few thousand refugees trying to sneak through our immigration laws was a side-issue, and I think many reasonable-thinking Aussies were able to put their personal opinions aside and think about what really matters for this country to prosper and grow. I honestly believe that our performance in world financial markets over the past year has vindicated my electoral choice last December.

And now to Mongu.

I think some of the things you talk about represent views both here and in other countries. I think a lot of it comes down to trust. For whatever reason, some races do not enjoy the trust and acceptance of others. Yes, I agree with you that Australians and Brits accept each other, sometimes grudgingly, because of those historical ties. We do not share those ties with many other ethnic groups. I don’t know if Australia will ever be the multi-cultural example to the world that we would like it to be, but there is certainly evidence that we have succeeded to some extent where others have failed.

Australians are as guilty as any other nationality of tarring people with the same brush and we have certainly done it with Muslims after September 11. It is a most unfortunate fact that Muslims are probably the least-trusted people on earth at the moment and it will take a very long time for them to gain the confidence of other groups.

I thank you both for your earnest and honest responses to my post – I had no idea of the extent of discussion this thread would raise. Perhaps there is more to come.

Regards

The Wombat

RE: Australia’s refugee problem

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 30-07-02 AT 08:12 AM (GMT)]Minmeister

Well, I certainly got up your nose, didn’t I? I have taken the opportunity to express a few personal opinions and have provided you with enough information for you to sum me up totally and know that I disgust you.

Let’s look at the points which have you so miffed…

1. I stated that I didn’t have a problem if British visitors overstayed visas, because I am part British myself. Well, that’s probably true – my father was English, and I suppose I am pre-disposed towards the English as a result. I am Australian born, and have lived here all my life but there are many countries which I admire and respect and would dearly love to visit. There are some where I would like to live.

You then asked me where I “drew the line between Brits ILLEGALLY staying in Australia and Afghanis/Pakistanis illegally staying in Australia.

I didn’t state that I drew the line anywhere – my predisposition towards the poms means I favour them, probably unfairly. I am well aware that when they do so, they do it illegally. I didn’t need your emphasis on this fact to reinforce it, but thanks for reminding me, anyway.

2. You were concerned that I made the comment that we have a lot of trouble with crime related to ethnic groups…” etc, the quotes a full para. and I won’t repeat it. A couple of points were made by you concerning this paragraph.

The first was we didn’t hear from the Aborigines about the treatment they received from the Brits etc., and that they were exterminated in Tasmania. Well, Minmeister, where the hell did you drag that one from? I didn’t mention that issue in the last post or any of my earlier posts on this matter. I have stated that certain groups in this country believe that the Federal Government owes the aboriginal people an apology over their treatment since white settlement and over the “stolen generations” issue. I have tried to be open about this issue when communicating with overseas members, because I don’t know how fairly this whole matter is being treated by foreign press. You might remember that was the original reason I started this thread in my first memo.

The second issue with that paragraph was my statement that Australians of non Anglo-Saxon background were “gradually” being overtaken in population numbers because of low natural birth rates and large proportions of immigrants being from Asian and Middle Eastern backgrounds”. The word “gradually” was used in my memo, you have chosen to ignore it. It is a fact that the proportion of the population of non Anglo-Saxon background (my words – you chose “European” – a much broader term) is reducing substantially as our multi-cultural society broadens and expands.

After that point in your letter, it was all downhill, to the point where on two separate occasions, you made it patently clear that you don’t like me. As I am of partly British descent, how the hell could I only see the bad that immigration has brought about in this country?
You accuse me of speaking of xenophobia as if it is a right we have. What exactly did I say in my earlier memo again? Let’s see..

“I think, to some extent that we are xenophobic. In particular, Asians and Middle Easterners are not as welcome as many other nationalities.” Well hey, I think the national support for the Federal Government at the last election at least bears that out to some extent. And no, the boat people issue didn’t have any effect on my choice at the last election, I consider the state of the economy to be far more critical.

Finally, your statement that the “wrong people in this country don’t just include a proportion of the illegal immigrants at Woomera and the like, they include the British backpackers who take the job you want at the pub whilst here illegally, and they include people like me, who see race as a defining aspect of human nature above all else.”

Well, fortunately for you, our Immigration Department personnel and law enforcement agencies aren’t like me, because they pursue all illegal immigrants, including British backpackers and don’t share my views.

And fortunately for me, I don’t share your views and in particular, you incredible perception and ability to sum people up from one or two sentences. I imagine we may come to blows again sometime in the future, because our views are opposing, but remember this.

I respect the fact that you are entitled to your views, and have not attacked you for holding them. I could be as utterly unpleasant towards you and fill my mail to you with vitriol, just as you did towards me. However, I believe the purpose of this venue is to enable people from around the world to communicate on a huge range of subjects, with the proviso that we understand and acknowledge the rights of each other to hold opposing views without feeling the need to attack or abuse them.

Have a nice day.

RE: Australia’s refugee problem

Mongu

You had me worried for a second there – I thought I had made a huge typo, but when I checked my last message, I did only say thirty three hundred, not thirty three thousand pounds. If our dollar was that strong, the Brits would have problems with millions of Aussies wanting to live there!

As I said in an earlier message, we do have tough immigration laws in this country, which are being enforced by a Federal Government which is being criticised from all corners for their “inhumane” approach to the refugees. That tough stance extends to visitors, because many overstay their visas, take up jobs in this country and live here for years. Unfortunately, many of them are British. Personally, being half Pom myself, I don’t mind how many Brits overstay – they’re welcome in my book. It’s a big country and very easy to get lost in if that’s what you set out to do. Just think of Peter Falconio.

However, our laws have to be applied evenly. Yes, we do tend to make you feel ill at ease, and perhaps this was brought about in part by September 11, but that is the price we pay for “national security”.

I can’t defend the way our officials treat people at the airport – I only hope that we Australians are more open and friendly towards you once you get through the arrival barriers. I will, however, admit to one thing. You mentioned xenophobia. I think, to some degree, that we are xenophobic, particularly in relation to certain ethnic groups. In particular, Asians and Middle Easterners are not as welcome as many other nationalities. We have a lot of trouble with crime related to ethnic groups, and the Anglo-Saxon background of Australians is gradually being overtaken in population numbers because of low natural birth rates and large proportions of immigrants being from Asian and Middle Eastern backgrounds. I guess we tend to sweep you all up with the same broom and that’s a bloody disgrace.

RE: Australia’s refugee problem

Rabie

The term “concentration camp” seems to be the most popular term for the detention centres, both overseas and in Australia, by those who oppose our firm immigration laws.

The best description of the detention centres is probably that they are large establishments comprising semi-permanent and permanent accomodation, with reasonably sized open recreation areas, surrounded by strong fencing, topped with razor wire. They are located at various points around the country, but the major centre is at Woomera, in South Australia, in the same general region where missile testing was conducted during the 1950’s and 60’s (and not so successfully just recently, as you may have seen on the news).

This part of Australia is quite barren, flat and featureless, and can be pretty hot in summer. Nights there can be pretty cool about this time of the year. However, if the inhabitants of the centres are telling the truth about their backgrounds, the climate should not be a shock to them as Afghanistan would have similar temperatures to Woomera’s.

Consider the standard of accommodation they left behind, if they are telling the truth about their homeland, then compare it to what we offer them whilst their claims for settlement are examined.

Air conditioning, television, recreation facilities, good food, clothing and medical care. All at taxpayer expense. Our Government has recently offered quite substantial financial grants, as much as $10,000 Aus (about thirty three hundred pounds sterling) to take with them if they go home peacefully. And we pay for their flights.

It’s true that boredom could be a severe problem, as there isn’t a great deal of variety in their activities and they have a lot of spare time. But some of them are so aggressive, demanding and bloody arrogant, that you wouldn’t want them for neighbours under any circumstances. Some demand that we allow them to stay and really bung it on when the tv cameras are on them.

Many of these people are not refugees from Afghanistan but are actually Pakistani’s, who have “lost” all their identification papers. (how convenient) They take quite a long time to process and if they fail in their applications, they then have the right of appeal. They can even use Australian laws against the Australian Government if their applications are delayed past a certain deadline. When you consider what has resulted in Afghanistan over the past year, what are they running from anyway – the Taliban have pretty well been routed and a democratic government is being established, so their freedom is no longer under threat.

Sometimes, I think we are the dumbest, most overly generous nation on earth. I can assure you, only the most ungrateful, insincere and ingenuine refugees are those who call these centres “concentration camps”.

Bugger ’em!

The Wombat

RE: Benjamin……

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 26-07-02 AT 08:40 AM (GMT)]Mongu

Thanks for your explanation of the aboriginal situation – I was going to do it last night but the line dropped out.

The aboriginal Australians were granted the right to vote in 1967 – I suppose that is “comparatively recently” as Comet states, But as for “leaving them alone” – how would you have suggested that the early settlers achieve that, Comet? The settlers (British convicts) were to settle somewhere and the Aboriginal people were everywhere – something had to give. Unfortunately, the Aboriginals (don’t call them Abo’s – that is now an offensive term) were generally a simple and reasonably peaceful folk who were easily displaced by the whites.

There were times when Aboriginals attacked and killed whites, just as there were occasions when the white settlers attacked and killed Aboriginals. On at least one occasion, white men were tried and executed for a massacre of Aboriginals. At least the courts were prepared to acknowledge the fault of the whites at the time.

Your description of the well-intentioned but probably misguided policy of the Governments of the day to remove aboriginal children from squalour and poverty was quite accurate. We are now paying for that policy with a number of activists calling the displaced children the “stolen generation” and seeking compensation for their “suffering”. The same groups are seeking an apology from the Federal Government for the treatment aboriginals received following settlement in 1788. The main stumbling block to the Government saying “sorry”, is that it has received legal advice such action would lead to massive compensation claims from the Aboriginals. Of course, the compensation wouldn’t be sought from those who actually suffered – they died years ago. The beneficiaries of any compensation would be their descendants, the ones who have already had a fortune spent on their housing, medical treatment and welfare.

As Aboriginals constitute less than 2.5% of our total population, it is possible that the remaining 97.5%, many of whom are immigrants, and have absolutely nothing to do with the treatment administered to Aboriginals over 150 years ago, could be expected to pay out enormous sums in compensation. The Aboriginal people have, sadly, shown themselves generally to be utterly incapable of managing money and have frequently squandered what they have been provided by the Government. Australians are sick to death of this and the amount of money which has been spent on improving Aboriginals’ health and accommodation standards. Many stories are told, some quite factual, of housing provided to aboriginal families at no cost to them, being destroyed in a few short years, with timber fittings such as doors, ripped out and burnt for firewood. The Aboriginal people have to start helping themselves and soon – it shouldn’t be left up to non-aboriginal (non-indigenous) Australians to carry them all.

Comet’s comment about the refugees being treated better than the Aboriginals was way off the mark – if he is relying on what his local media is telling him, he shouldn’t believe everything he reads. Having said that, I did start this post by asking what readers thought about our treatment of refugees based on media presentation of the story. Comet, where do you live and how much coverage is given to this subject in your local media? From your flag, it appears that you originate from Europe – Germany?

Regards

Wombat

RE: Australia’s refugee problem

Comet

What information are you basing your comment on regarding the treatment of Aboriginal Australians?