Dare2I don’t have a source. I have this impression. Didn’t Dassault want to replace the FSO’s irst because of obsolescense? I haven’t heard any complaints about the Pirate. I tend to remember that FSO has a bit shorter range than Pirate , but i won’t lose my time searching.
@ Dare2
Thanks, i understand.
OSF contract was passed by what is now DGA in 1991 to Thomson Optronique and SAGEM, so the technology used at the time is pretty obsolescent today and spares would cost a fortune to produce.
Further more, the OSF IRST was the first western system to use two bandwidth but today the enormous progreses made with IR technology in France means they can go a few cycles forward within a couple of years.
The infrared scanner works in the 3-5mn and 8-12mn bands, providing a 3-5mn capability for the first time in the west, says Thomson Optronique commercial director Jean-Claude Vergnères. This wavelength provides “considerably better detection capability in humid conditions”, he adds. = 1999.
They managed two world breakthrough under DGA contract over the past three years or so, for both IR and Optical, with pixel-powered matrices and multi-colour IR sensors using advanced algorythms to get rid of the noises of both bandwidth.
This increases the detection ranges of both optical and ir sensors in bad MTO.
Aspis
Why would they ask pilots to degrade their missiles’ performance , is something i can’t understand. If they go to war, they will have an agreement with the enemy to degrade their missiles? No. Then what’s the point in doing exercize in conditions that don’t reflect real life?Besides, why did they ask to degrade MICA? The Typhoons had Amraam, right? Aren’t they claimed to have better range than the MICAs?
This is what the 1/7 LtColonel said, ROE are a bit weird but if he said so we have all the good reasons to believe him, btw it is not the first time, during one of the 12F Rafale M F1 encounter vs the Greeks their adversary couldn’t bevlieve how the French would count a kill at such a range, the AIM-120 couldn’t be fired out of its NEZ and count for a kill.
Reason is simple; MICA is way better and have was higher performances than what is generaly believed.
Dare2Ah, so basically the camera outperforms the Pirate in target ID! I didn’t know that! Thanks.
Detection and ID are two different matters, the OSF IRST can detect a fighter-sized target at the (1999) declassified range of 130 km, it is not used at these ranges for ID and the camera offers the resolution to do this earlier than the IRST.
DATE:09/06/99
SOURCE:Flight International
Seeker gets on track
The Rafale’s electro-optic sensors, the aircraft’s ‘eyes’ will provide a valuable supplement to the radar and together will give the crew a detailed all-weather view
Julian Moxon/PARISThomson Optronique declines to give exact performance details of the FSO, but it is understood that at 20,000ft, for example, in air-to-air mode, the system will have an infrared detection capability of around 130knm, while laser ranging is possible out to about 33km, and the TV is capable of looking out to 45km.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1999/06/09/51953/seeker-gets-on-track.html
Have a good read.
quadbike
Dare 2 wiill do wonders.
I think not, i easely admit to hanger management issues, this disqualifies me for any form of public relation jobs, kicking butts is not the best way to sell a product. 😀
jackjack
what were the rules ?
Degraded MICA performances level 1 (4/0) and two (3/1) for Rafale, if we do not know what the Typhoon ROE were we still canot claim Rafale had an advantage, reason why the 1/7 squadron pilots are so happy.
Dare2About the FSO… The Typhoon has also PIRATE, which is also supposed to have better range. So why would the FSO allow for earlier identification?
Because it is the OSF near-IR CAMERA channel which allows for long range ID not the IRST.
jackjack
do you see the obvious, they count for nothing, its a training exercise
Do you see the obvious?
ROE were not favouring Rafale but Typhoon.
Dare2Back to topic.
no it doesn’t.
But once again, nobody is claiming any A2A superioty over the typhoon.
We can still demonstrate their fortes and weakneses…
It is Bae who is spreading that the typhoon is vastly superior to the rafale in A2A for more than 10 years.
And the gurus and the fanboyz and those who pretend to be what they are not…
The typhoon is always presented as the ultimate interceptor while the rafale is fine but nothing special in A2A…
And of course guess who was jumping up and down fonk/gegene/lordassap when he was demonstrating the opposite?
But where are the proofs of the rafale being that much inferior than the Typhoon in A2A ?
+1
Both aircrafts have met several times during NATO exercices for the past 3 years and the typhoon has never proved ANYTHING special against the rafale, NE-VER. And if I believe the various rumors from the french aviators, it is even quite the contrary.
Beware kovy, you’re going to be called fonky and accused of being ruining topics and attacking other posters! 😀
It’s pretty obvious that when they chosed their design points (2.2 Aspect ratio, 48* sweep, close coupled canard) Rafale designers knew what they were doing because even so Tarnished once said they trained to get into the merge at M 1.6, the turning fights get “dirty” and slow very fast.
This is where Rafale have proven superior to all opposing aircrafts, i mean how can the western champions of extreme AoA (F/A-18 and F-22) not be scoring MORE vs Rafale is this wasn’t a FACT?
“Incredible” nose pointing capabilties without TVC?
Here goes all of the “bad guy (*)” theories creeping up the surface AGAIN and it’s only early days, we will hear about this again, pretty soon, (reasons why some tries so hard to pass him for a troll).
(*) LordAssap/Gegene/Fonk became either the nightmare of some because he demoslished their stories with all the firm evidences needed or the reason for their panic attacks because they can’t keep up with him.
Too bad. 😎
Dare2i’m only a messenger 🙂 … i just report what i heard , what i see …
you’re free to agree or not . i dont see why i would have less credibility than others because i report what i heard from a french pilot or another stranger pilot ..
and i personnaly don’t know dare2 , and arthuro . and i’m not here to insult everybody ..
sorry for my bad english .
No but you already are a target; paranoia runs high and blue on blue is a speciality of some, expecially when the most uninformed have little to oppose other than taking you on personaly as they do me on a regular basis and their ego requier some extra attention from other forumers.
Thanks for your efforts for informing us and good luck with the little self gratifying trolls.
arthuro
(HME not to name him)
More of the same, but just a reminder:
This guy posted AJs material and flamed Rafale suporters, so either you’re a blind shooter and are dangerous, getting at people before reading their post, either you’re embarassed and can’t admit yet another blue on blue.
In all cases you’re the one who should come down and have a kit kat, alternatively you also can try to write on the topic subjects.
Dare2I feel sorry for all the honest and polite posters here who have to endure Dare2 agressions and “mysterious” new coming avatar with very strange uncheckable sources…
I feel sorry that you canot stop yourself smearing about people (not only me) and accusing them of what you never manage to prove because there is no evidence of it), for all we know you are the last one of us two who got banned so get over it and do your home work instead, dude.
No i will ask YOU one again politely as i did several time before: Leave me the hell alone. 😎
There are those in the French side who makes the JL and consort WAY easier…
By downing their own kind, reminds me of the occupation and my family history (execution, deportation due to delation), that’s SAD, and so we have “ennemies” in our own ranks too but only at the time the FTPs would put a piece of lead between their eyes to silence them, we cant do this over here.
Originally Posted by Aspis
Thank you Dare2 for translating.
No fuss, mate!
Dare2Sorry , arthuro , you’re wrong . i’m totally new on this forum , but i follow this discussion for a moment … I never answer here , because i don’t speak a very good english .
I’m not this kind of Guy like Jackonico/John Lake , using double avatar …
but you’re free to not trust me . 😉
I’m just well informed and i decide to enter in the arena to fight with or against you :rolleyes:
Well you see, he think you are Fonk/Gegene/LordAssap or ME.
How DARE you “Fonky”?? 😀
Never mind i saw how they took some guys down for cause of personal gruge here and in Air Defense (calling them LordAssap when it was obvious it was another guy, Grabber 56), they have no other way you see, they can’t do proper home work.
There are those in the French side who makes the JL and consort WAY easier…
By downing their own kind, reminds me of the occupation and my family history (execution, deportation due to delation), that’s SAD, and so we have “ennemies” in our own ranks too but only at the time the FTPs would put a piece of lead between their eyes to silence them, we cant do this over here. 😀
Scorpion82
Regarding the UAE I take it as it is for now and wait for hopefully more specfic details and reports of future encounters. Over the years we might get an average which may allow us to come to a certain conclusion.
WHY wait? 7/1 is a pretty conclusive score by everyone standards, had it been Typhoon downing Rafale 7/1 reported by JonLakonicko you wouldn’t need confirmation would you?
Originally Posted by Cougar133
I had a discussion with Cptn Ruet , Rut’ ….here what he said to me ( in french ) , if someone can translate :
-Typhoon Vs Rafale , ça se vaut ?
Typhoon Vs Rafale equal?– ça se passe très bien pour nous ..
It goes very well for us…– pourtant le typhie a un TWR supérieur non ?
But Typhoon have a superior TWR no?– ça fait pas tout , on est beaucoup plus manoeuvrants , que ce soit typhoon italiens , allemands anglais ou encore espagnols ..
It doesn’t do everything, we are much more maneuvrable, be it italian typhoons, germans, english or spanish.– meilleures CDVE ?
Better DDVE (FCS?)– oui , que ce soit a basse ou hautes vitesses
Yes, bet it at high or low speeds.– et t’as entendu parler des f22 qui se sont fait tailler en pièces aux USA par les typhoon de la RAF ? intox ?
Did you hear of the F-22 who got spanked by RAF Typhoons in the USA?– pas beaucoup entendu parler , du moins pas ce résultat la …………..
No much heared of it or rather not this result.– ok , beaucoup de mystères alors
Ok Much mystery then.– moins on en parle mieux c’est , Va bien… et laisse dire…
The least we talk the better, goo going and let live.– je vois ^^ ….
I see…
Dare2what a joke cougar 133…
2 posts…And I am already convinced that again someone is not playing honest and is using a double avatar !
Try your chance again for lying so pattently with another avatar preferably !:diablo:
Instead of using JL favourite smear trick you’ll be FAR better off leaning your ABC on aerodynamics and structural design.
This would avoid you to have a go stupidly at people way more knowlegeable than you and have to ressort to trolling instead of having the technical arguments ready to counter their comments.
Which of course you CANT. :diablo:
The trolls are not those who are called this name by you and your good buddy all the time, if two you have anything to say about these comments (or that of other for that matter) please at least have the decency to do it without taking him on at personal level, this is becoming something of an habit with you dudes!
Remember why you were banned from this forum last time?.
Aspis
This is understandable. The same goes for greek defence journalists when they want to spin things. Although some of them are more aggressive than they should and end up doing too obvious mistakes.
HE DID.
Smearing Peter Collins and Flight International the way he went did snowball the bad side of BIG avalanche for him.
Dare2Sometime we wonder who they believe they are talking to…
Man do they think France is a country like Burkina Faso or Zimbabwe?
Here it was the weekly press conference of the Ministry of Defense. The shedulle of the day:
– the ATLC in UAE
– CypriusAs reported to the .gouv.fr site!
+1.
But of course there are some (and their litlle friends) who are going to tell us that JL is more credible. 😀
BTW havent we been told that Typhoon/Rafale encouters never happened before (not mentioning at least a proven Mirage 2000 kill)?
Dare2Thank you for bringing it forward, because if I say this it’s spin and twist;)
Sure this is actually his opinion vs known facts.
Now: HE havent been replying to MY reply and for you you can spin and twist FACTS all you want as you usualy do it wont change facts.
FACT are: Typhoon is designed with a lower structural load than Rafale and maximum turn rates like lifespan are conputed using them.
Good for you OPIT means comparing a 2000 to a Rafale, ask him to check on his info he won’t be spining as you do.
Dare2So if he decided to spin the truth he is going to give some “half hearted, hypocrite” good points to the rafale to strenghten his criticism.
More lies won’t make a truth and if the RAF Lt Colonel (had to be at least equal in rank of course) had spoken he wouldn’t have spoken to JL but to a much more reputable reporter, the RAF doesn’t do smear through Jon Lake, they don’t need it, there are plenty of GOOD and HONNEST journalists there to speak to if need be and guys who can be published while trusted to report correctly in reputable editions too.
They know in the industry how he can not hesitate to bash up RAF or RN superior officers to try to make a story stick, how he smeared Peter Collins for whom most of them have the highest respect, not to mention Flight International and their military editor, Craig Hoyle.
JL have no more weight with them you can be sure of that (in fact he makes them laugh i know it for a fact).
More to the point they also damned well know that anything they would report to him would be used the most disgusting way and that if ever they were to say a good word about a Rafale one day they would see no gratefulnes from him whatsoever.
WHY on hearth would a RAF Lt-Colonel speak to JL on the subject with all he have writen about their most reputable superior officers and test pilots?
It’s not his LIES on Rafale and its pilots or Dassault which loosed him, it’s his SMEAR on Peter Collins, Craig Hoyle and the diverse RAF/RN top brasses…
So his story is as reliable as the results from the F-22/Rafale encouter were “predictable”.
Dare2Well it’s been pretty obvious who the liar was for a number of years.
A Lt-Colonel in the AdlA whith a Rafale Squadron under his command doesn’t brag, J-Lackoniko is a liar and btw we also are not given any source nor names as usual, simply because there is none and you can bet your X-Mas turkey that there will be none in the future, no one to come forward from an official source and tell a different story…
J-L is doing bred and butter for Eurofighter, it’s been known for some time but there was no firm evidences of that.
Trying to pass this damage limitation work for facts with the usual “well chaps, in know from a source” thing is pathetic and laughable but i have the advantage to raise doubts in one minds and give hope to the usual Rafale bashers (we know who they are).
Look at the effect that this news have on someone like our “friend” Scorpion and you’ll understand, a FAIR 7/1 score is of course unthinkable, l’espoir fait vivre.
BTW Dassault laughed when they read he pretended to have been seating near their representative and all the stories about Singapore. 😀
Well it’s been reported by a French AdlA superior Officier who was there and flew the aircraft, he certainly is a far better sources than the contacts who told JL he could send PM to everyone because Rafale got trashed by F-22 or rather that the results were “predictable” as he puted it.
JL is finished with the French industrials, you can be sure he won’t have acces to the Dassault-Aviation chalet or the Rafale cockpit even a simulator, he aslo won’t be able to talk to a DGA pilot as he did not in the past (they are under Secret-Defense duty and doesn’t speak work to journalists).
Please Jacky, send us a PM on how your “eastern smile” article was turn down after publication by AFM editors who did not agree with its content and proved to be total manure with time.
Dare2😮
Reaching 10/11G for half a second before stabilizing at 9 during an airshow is not a big deal.
It’s an instantaneous turn expressed in g values unreachable for many other aircraft (even future ones), this is also true.
That doesn’t require specific skills either.
Compared to mine yes it does, i mean you wont pull 11.0 g and come back from this if you are not trained, g loads are a question of training, pilots does train and test, they practice contraction breathing, if this is no skills what else is?
Pilots are trained to be smoother in everyday use you know. Because this kind of thing tends to make the mechanics quite angry and to eat into the operational service life of the aircraft.
Valid when you have a “normal” structural load of 1.5 you also know that Rafale designed structural load is higher than that.
Remember the debate you had with you know who, it didn’t come down to this detail and there was little answer to his false arguments.
It just mentioned number of flight hours, not the structural load under which it is possible to reach them and it happens to be higher with the Rafale.
I do point this out, as i did point out that Typhoon structural load had been reduced below international standards at design stage, as are those of the F-35 B and C, for the same reason of weight saving, not every aircraft is equal at this level.
Btw Opit, Max turn rates are also computed including the Max structural loads (if you see what i mean), so if Ruet pulls 11.0 g it is because he can demonstrate this sort of instantaneous turn rates, not because the meca are treated with Champagne after the demo to stay quiet about it.
So don’t try to make everyone think that 11G turns are routine stuff in squadrons. That’s just wrong and you know it.
Thanks.
Not routine (as take off and landing) but possible and practiced by these guys when conditions allows, as for the demo team, at the beggining if i remember well, they were at least four to do it out of two selected and this is nearly half the total number of the 1/7 squadron.
My point remain valid.
Rafale have the structural g load to pull more g than most aircrafts (if not all current fighters) and the pilots CAN do it (as emonstrated by Ruet).
Now weither they chose or not to do in operation it is yet another matter, furthermore as you pointed out yourself, it also can save their lifes occasionaly.
Dare2Yes, i don’t mean the engagement distance. I mean distance between the HUD elements.
I edited my previous post and here’s a brief scheme:
Compare these distances with the M2000. They are different. And if it was a Mirage, there should be visible even partially, the altitude on the right, where i have put “ALT”.
Thanks OPIT and Aspis, since i havent seen that many Rafale HUDin gun modes, i did find it hard to figure the difference at first.
Dare2Is it really that difficult to get the point that I’m talking about routine training operations at the squadron level and not about a selected airforce pilot presenting his aircraft to the public?
No more SPIN and TWIST please, capabilties are THERE as well as pilots skills, get over it.
ATLC : L’interview du commandant de l’escadron de chasse 01.007 Provence !!!
samedi 19 décembre 2009 :: Débat :: Alerter la modérationLa participation de six avions de combat Rafale F3 au récent Air Tactical Leadership Course (ATLC) qui s’est déroulé aux Emirats arabes unis du 15 novembre au 9 décembre a été”un succès total”. “Nous avons fait carton plein” assure le lieutenant-colonel Fabrice Grandclaudon, commandant de l’escadron 1/7 Provence (Saint-Dizier).
La participation à ce grand exercice international était très importante pour la France alors que les négociations pour la vente de 60 Rafale aux EAU se poursuivent. Clairement, un bon point a été marqué par les Français auprès de leurs collègues émiriens. D’autant que la disponibilité des Rafale a été”exemplaire” : ils ont pû participer à tous les exercices à raison de deux patrouilles de quatre avions par jour, depuis la base d’Al Dhafra
Le “plateau” réuni pour cet ATLP était impressionnant : F-16 C/D block 60 et Mirage 2000-9 (Emirats), F-16 MLU (Jordanie), F-7 [une version modernisée du Mig-21] (Pakistan), Typhoon [Eurofighter] (Royaume-Uni) et F-16 CJ et F-22 (Etats-Unis). Plus des Awacs et des tankers. L’exercice consiste à simuler des raids importants, jusqu’à quarante avions, dans “des missions réalistes représentatives d’un conflit de haute intensité”. Les appareils doivent faire face à une oppositon aérienne et sol-air.
Au plan du combat aérien, son optronique secteur frontal (OSF) a permis aux Rafale d’identifier visuelement des cibles jusqu’à 30/40 kilomètres, alors que l’identification habituelle en défense aérienne se fait entre trois et cinq kilomètres. En matière de guerre électronique, les Rafales ont détecté des menaces sol-air que les F-16 CJ américains, dont c’est la vocation principale, n’avaient pas vu. Un Rafale a pu simuler le tir de six munitions air-sol (A2SM) sur 6 objectifs différents (programmés) à une distance de 20 à 40 kilomètres, puis tirer trois missiles air-air Mica, le tout en une minute – ce qui témoigne de la polyvalence de l’avion.
Lors d’affrontements air-air, le Rafale a “mis des tôles” aux Typhoons de la Royal Air Force, assure le lieutenant-colonel Grandclaudon. En version dégradée, à quatre contre quatre, les Rafale ont réalisé des scores de 4 à 0 et de 3 à 1.
L’avion de combat français s’est également frotté au F-22, le chasseur le plus moderne de l’USAF. Au cours d’une rencontre, ils se sont affrontés à six reprises, le F-22 ne mettant qu’un seul coup au but.
Cet article est celui de Monsieur Merchet, journaliste à Libé. Ce qui est reporté est une bombe dans le monde de l’aéronautique militaire. Enfin, nous savons ce que vaut réellement le Typhoon, le Raptor et le Rafale…
Je ne dirai pas Cocorico, mais simplement que la France a une nouvelle fois démontré qu’elle fut et est toujours une très grande nation aéronautique : Après avoir fait voler les tous premiers avions il y a près d’un siècle, après le célèbre Mirage III puis le Mirage F1 puis le Mirage 2000, la France est clairement très en avance aujourd’hui avec le Rafale.
http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2009/12/19/158245-atlc-linterview-du-commandant-de-lescadron-de-chasse-01007-provenceInterview of the 1/7 Vendee Commander, lieutenant-colonel Grandclaudon, confirmation:
RAF Typhoons got trounced by AdlA attack squadron pilots… 😀
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