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Dare2

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  • in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443664
    Dare2
    Participant

    Correct.

    Proves you wrong too.

    Define Long-Range/All-weather please?

    And Nicolas10, I’m not Lordassap but Dare2 BTW and I am not “Saying” anything but reporting on two different technologies and the resulting increases in range of the newest.

    There is no need to add “useful” to it as detection range is meant in the word “Long-Range” from Long-Range/All-weather.

    Multi-color IR sensors have a longer range because they allow for substraction algorithms that a single color sensor doesn’t allow for.

    The band substraction algorithms provide the capability to eliminate the background (AIR, LAND, SEA) and SUN reflect while revealing the threat hot spot.

    French industry is developing infrared sensors that see in two bandwidth groups, an effort to fill military requests for gear that can penetrate camouflage, smoke, fog and other difficult conditions.
    Images taken from two parts of the wavelength could also be fused to create a synthetic picture, the optical equivalent of synthetic aperture radar.

    Using two parts of the spectrum means the camera can also be effective in different climates, as hot or cool temperatures can cut the effectiveness of a single-band sensor, depending on the wavelength.

    This results in a longer detection range.

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443670
    Dare2
    Participant

    aurcov
    No, it doesn’t, because IRST usually works in 8-12 µm. Adding the 3-5 band will help them see in bad weather at shorer distances, while with long wave you see nothing.

    READ again:

    This bispectral approach promises sensors that reveal different aspects of the same object, allowing the user to see things clearly that a single band may show only in weaker resolution.

    Images taken from two parts of the wavelength could also be fused to create a synthetic picture, the optical equivalent of synthetic aperture radar.

    A breakthrough in the Infrared Detection technology.

    Based on: Unique Multi-color infrared detectors and band substraction algorithms.

    The band substraction algorithms provide the capability to eliminate the background (AIR, LAND, SEA) and SUN reflect while revealing the threat hot spot.

    I think this is english enough for everyone to understand that you are wrong, what exactly do you substract to ONE bandwidth?

    ALL sources i posted proves it and they come from Thales or repports on their activities, obviously not from the US DoD.

    :dev2: 😡 :diablo: Doesn’t change FACTS.

    Multi-colours technologies increases the all-weather/long-range capabilties of IR sensors, = FACT.

    There are several developement programes on this very topic under leadership of our procurement agency and funded by our Defense Minister (and these are NOT the only ones designed to improve IR sensors weather independency). Cheers.

    Wrong again. because DAS is supposed to work at short-to-medium range (~ 15 km around the F 35), it works in mid-band (the bad-weather-resistent-band, remember?)…

    We all know it so it is lacking in the all-weather/long-range capabilties field.

    You might stick to your reality denial state all you wish.

    in reply to: Bad news for the F-35 #2443674
    Dare2
    Participant

    What, a negative F-35 thread started by an F-35 fanboy? 😀

    As a Norwegian I agree it is a pity that the countries could not agree on the purchase plan since it would have lowered the price and thus the amount of my tax money that will be allocated to this.

    We may speculate what happened; is it all due to the current economical crisis? or also something else?

    Loke i have a question for you.

    All considered i.e performances technologies and the all industrial deal, would you be happy if your country was to go SAAB way’s?

    in reply to: More good JSF news and program updates #2443676
    Dare2
    Participant

    And it’s not like the US or others wouldn’t do that them self.

    Yes appart for one thing; the Squadron doctrine for Rafale is for the minimum use of the radar, even for intercepts and A2A combat.

    For the rest SPECTRA is never used in its full offensive/jamming capabilties either.

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443677
    Dare2
    Participant

    This doesn’t contradict what I said.

    It contradict your statement more than once:

    Just to educate you: “adding bandwidth” won’t “give you increased range in adverse conditions”.

    vs

    This bispectral approach promises sensors that reveal different aspects of the same object, allowing the user to see things clearly that a single band may show only in weaker resolution.
    And:
    Images taken from two parts of the wavelength could also be fused to create a synthetic picture, the optical equivalent of synthetic aperture radar.

    Comprende?

    As for MIRAS you posted, it is old news. DAS is not a primitive MWS as the french thing. It’s much more.

    NOT as old as EODAS, LESS performant in poor weather conditions than MIRAS for the obvious reasons you failed to prove wrong and are clearly explained to you in many forms, including this last one:

    A breakthrough in the Infrared Detection technology.

    Based on: Unique Multi-color infrared detectors and band substraction algorithms.

    So before trying to make points about technologies please make sure YOU get your facts R.I.G.H.T.

    What MIRAS is in comparison to EODAS, is a much less weather-dependent system which will be the base for Thales future defense system (for Rafale among others).

    As for all EODAS “capabilties” you are thinking of, appart for showing in youtube animations they are FAR from being a reality today, adding a visual channel to MIRAS is not the problem (It’s already been done with the single bandwidth ELIX-IR), making it less weather dependent is where Thales is focusing on and they have a good two technology cycles head lead on the USA.

    NO PR braging and youtube movies here.

    Looking like a Klingon device and being a PR movie star doesn’t give you superior performances, newer, more advanced technologies does.

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443688
    Dare2
    Participant

    F-18 Super Hornets to Get IRST
    19-May-2009 09:31 EDT

    Related Stories: Americas – USA, Boeing, C4ISR, Contracts – Awards, Design Innovations, Fighters & Attack, IT – Software & Integration, Lockheed Martin, New Systems Tech, R&D – Private, Sensors & Guidance, Transformation, Warfare – Trends

    Advertisement
    IRST: B-2, ICU
    (click to view full)The F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet Block IIs are just beginning to enter service, with significantly improved AN/APG-79 AESA radars and other electronic upgrades. Recent years have seen another spreading improvement within global fighter fleets, however: Infa-Red Search & Track (IRST) systems that provide long range thermal imaging against air and ground targets. Most of these deployments have been on Russian (MiG-29 family, SU-30 family) and European (Eurofighter, Rafale) fighters, or special American exports (UAEs F-16E/F Block 60s, F-15K/SG).

    That absence puts American fighters behind an important curve. This IRST approach can defeat radar stealth in some instances, by focusing on engine exhaust or on the friction of the aircraft as it powers through the atmosphere. As F-14 pilots will recall, long range electro-optics also offer positive identification, conferring the ability to use a planes missiles to their full ranges, without creating friendly fire concerns. Best of all, IRST offers a passive way to locate and target enemy aircraft one that wont trigger radar warning receivers. When coupled with medium-range IR missiles like some Russian AA-10 variants, Frances MICA-IR, or even future versions of AMRAAM NCADE, an IRST system offers a fighter both an extra set of medium-range eyes, and a stealthy air-to-air combat weapon.

    A program is beginning that would give American teen series fighters this capability, albeit in a somewhat unusual way

    F/A-18F w. tanks

    (click to view full)Retrofits into existing aircraft can be tricky, but in July 2007 Boeing managed an RFI selection process and tapped Lockheed Martins Missiles and Fire Control division in Orlando, FL to supply up to 150 IRST systems for F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet Block II aircraft. The two firms already had a history of cooperation in this area. Boeing has already installed Lockheed Martins Tiger Eyes system in Korean F-15K and RSAF F-15SG Strike Eagles; it includes an IRST as part of its suite.

    Instead of modifying the Super Hornets airframes structure or wiring, the partners will be taking an unusual route: modifying a 480 gallon centerline fuel tank to carry 330 gallons of fuel + the IRST system. This approach would also allow refits to existing Super Hornets, and indeed to all teen series fighters in the US arsenal, once software integration is performed for each aircraft type.

    The drawback to this approach is that a centerline tank with IRST needs to stay on the airplane in combat, compromising its aerodynamic performance and radar signature.

    The 3 industrial partners in this effort are Boeing IDS, Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control, and General Electric. First production deliveries of F/A-18 E/F IRST systems are expected in 2012, with initial operational capability expected in 2013.

    F/A-18F w. IRST
    (click to view full)May 18/09: Lockheed Martin announces a $4 million contract from Boeing for the technology development phase of the F/A-18E/F IRST program. The contract follows a 2-year pre-system design and development program, in which Lockheed Martin was down-selected as the sole source provider (see July 2/07 entry).

    The corporate release adds that Lockheed Martin is the only U.S. company with an active IRST production line, and notes that the system is readily adaptable to a wide range of installation options on various platforms.

    March 11/09: Boeing announces that its IRST tank system has successfully completed a series of 6 flight tests at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, MD, and 4 at Naval Air Weapons Station China Lake, CA. The system successfully demonstrated transfer alignment, long-range target detection, and the ability to operate in a fuel tank.

    For the Super Hornet platform, they also tested the IRSTs integration into the planes multisource integration algorithms. That lets the Super Hornets systems correlate IRST tracking data with other sensors like its radar, radar warning receivers, etc., in order to produce a single picture of the battlespace around it. IRST systems need that kind of integration to be effective, and its work that will have to be done anew for each new aircraft type that is fitted with this system.

    Dec 10/08: Boeing subsidiary McDonnell Douglas Corp. in St. Louis, MO received an $12 million cost-plus-fixed-fee delivery order against a previously issued basic ordering agreement (N00019-05-G-0026) for research and development services in support of the Technology Development phase of an IRST system for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

    Work will be performed in St. Louis, MO (50%) and Orlando, FL (50%), and is expected to be complete in October 2009. The Naval Air Systems Command in Patuxent River, MD issued the contract.

    July 2/07: Boeing chooses Lockheed Martin, and the firms invest more than $10 million of their own money on a risk reduction demonstration, with U.S. Navy participation. They expect to receive a US Navy IRST development contract in the summer of 2008, with a total value of over $500 million through the development and production phases of the program. Boeing release.

    Tag: IRSTpod, IRSTtank, f-18irst
    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f-18-super-hornets-to-get-irst-03429/

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443691
    Dare2
    Participant

    Dear LordAssap/Fonk/Sampaix/Dare2/Whatever (:diablo::p:D), glad to have you back! It’s been ~ 1/2 year and frankly we missed you… you bring the funny side to this forum

    A very good way to distract pple from the fact that you have no proper technical point to oppose to the links i posted.

    Just to educate you: “adding bandwidth” won’t “give you increased range in adverse conditions”.

    Yes it does; only YOU doesn’t know it yet.

    Posted 05/17/07 17:44
    Print this story
    Seeing More Infrared
    French Firms Develop Bispectral Sensors for Air, Land

    By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

    French industry is developing infrared sensors that see in two bandwidth groups, an effort to fill military requests for gear that can penetrate camouflage, smoke, fog and other difficult conditions.

    Most gear now sees in only one segment of the infrared spectrum, which is often divided into three bands: short-wave, 1 to 3 microns; medium-wave, 3 to 5 microns; and long-wave, 8 to 12 microns.

    Each set of wavelengths has its operational advantages and disadvantages.
    “There has been internal debate on what’s the best spectrum to use,” said Michel Papuchon, technical director of the Thales Land and Joint Systems division.

    But with military users constantly pushing for smarter, more capable technology, suppliers are developing products that will help to acquire and identify objects more effectively in shifting operational conditions.

    So Thales and other firms are working on gear that is sensitive to infrared energy in more than one band.

    This bispectral approach promises sensors that reveal different aspects of the same object, allowing the user to see things clearly that a single band may show only in weaker resolution.

    Images taken from two parts of the wavelength could also be fused to create a synthetic picture, the optical equivalent of synthetic aperture radar.

    Using two parts of the spectrum means the camera can also be effective in different climates, as hot or cool temperatures can cut the effectiveness of a single-band sensor, depending on the wavelength.

    In a bid to have their cake and eat it too, Thales optronics engineers have produced a technology demonstrator camera, dubbed the Catherine XP project, that works in the medium- and long-wave bands.

    Based on technology for the existing Catherine series of fire-control sensors, the demonstrator was completed in March after a year’s work and unveiled at a sensor technology conference in Orlando, Fla.

    The camera uses third-generation gallium arsenide sensor technology and projects an eye-safe laser beam, Papuchon told journalists.

    The Catherine XP includes two Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector arrays — one per band — to provide an image of 768 by 575 pixels, according to an article in a 2006 issue of Proceedings of SPIE, the International Society for Optical Engineering.

    The arrays occupy a housing about the size of two small laptop computers stacked one atop the other, the same size as a single-band model.

    Thales intends next to develop a more advanced demonstrator model whose array can sense both wavelength bands at the same time.

    Applications range from UAVs and other aerial platforms to a turret-mounted sight on light armored vehicles.

    Thales developed the dual-spectrum Catherine XP camera with the Délégation Générale pour l’Armement procurement office and Sofradir, a French infrared sensor specialist.

    Sofradir has also gone the bispectral route, developing the Janus compact infrared detector to work in the short- and mid-wave bands.

    Designed for air-to-air missiles and missile-warning systems, the sensor uses its multispectral abilities to distinguish between jet engines and decoy flares, said Philippe Tribolet, Sofradir’s research and development vice president.

    The mid-wave band is used to acquire the target, and the short-wave band distinguishes the decoy flares from the jet engine, Tribolet said.

    A trend in dual-band technology has grown in response to demand for more complex features in large-format IR detectors.

    These features improve target identification, signal recognition and clutter rejection.

    Janus was developed in cooperation with Sofradir’s partner CEA-Leti-Minatec. The detector uses stable, low-defect-density photovoltaic cells built of mercury cadmium telluride (MCT or HgCdTe) to deliver images of 320 by 256 pixels.

    The chips are manufactured using molecular beam epitaxy, a technique in which single crystals are deposited on a base in near-vacuum. Sofradir is based in Veurey-Voroize, near the French Alps.

    A French Air Force spokesman said the service is working to replace its older infrared sensors. For example, it is replacing the older Clio infrared cameras on its Fennec helicopters with the new, lighter FLIR Ultra 7000 MM.

    The new gear is also built to perform better in high humidity, which makes it useful for helicopters that operate in France’s tropical overseas department of French Guiana.

    Five camera units were delivered to the Air Force in 2006 and five were planned for this year. Fennec aircraft of the quick reaction unit at the Villacoublay airbase, covering the Ile de France operational zone, will be equipped with the new cameras.

    The FSO will provide all-weather air-to-air and air-to-ground surveillance and targeting and, says Thomson-CSF Optronique, is the first such system in the West to work on the 3-5 micron band as well as the usual 8-12 micron wavelength, the former providing “considerably improved detection in humid conditions”. 1999/05/05/.

    http://www.flightglobal.com/articles…optronics.html

    Next stage to dual bandwidth technology:
    http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss325/aviadare2/MIRAS-1.jpg

    A breakthrough in the Infrared Detection technology.

    Based on: Unique Multi-color infrared detectors and band substraction algorithms.
    http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/5d9f69f3-fe39-459b-98f1-7e2a6cec4cfb.pdf?LangType=2057

    Thanks for the lecture aurcov. 😀

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443728
    Dare2
    Participant

    I know, I know. It blows me backwards when people compare conventional IRST’s with the F-35’s EOTS/EODAS.

    EOTS in NOT EODAS and there are similar systems to EODAS in Europe, even more advanced technologicaly, what matters is not the system it is the technology behind it.

    The two systems are so far apart you’d need to be intellectually dishonest to claim they play in the same field.

    Sure!

    Do you need to be intellectually dishonest yourself for making a point stick?

    Please compare a long-range/all-weather capability to a VMC limited system, mono-channel/mono-bandwidth to multi-channel/multi-bandwidth.

    EOTS is a SIMPLIFIED version of SNIPER-XR which sole improvement over the SNIPER pod was Optical and software-based, it is mono-channel and mono-bandwidth, EOTS have even less capabilties than SNIPER-XR, all are VMC Limited.

    Now if you are lucky enough to FIND the Joint Strike Fighter Program Brief 13 September 2006_PDF you will have acces to this information (VMC Limited), the Joint Strike Lightning II Program Brief 26 September 2006_PDF describes EOTS as Day/Night only.

    You might not like the idea but IR technology relies on sensors, adding bandwidth give you increased range in adverse conditions and we know it since 1990, so Europe have been focusing on improving IR sensor all-weather performances since:

    DATE:09/06/99
    SOURCE:Flight International
    Seeker gets on track

    The Rafale’s electro-optic sensors, the aircraft’s ‘eyes’ will provide a valuable supplement to the radar and together will give the crew a detailed all-weather view…

    The infrared scanner works in the 3-5mn and 8-12mn bands, providing a 3-5mn capability for the first time in the west, says Thomson Optronique commercial director Jean-Claude Vergnères. This wavelength provides “considerably better detection capability in humid conditions”, he adds.
    http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1999/06/09/51953/seeker-gets-on-track.html

    DATE:05/05/99
    SOURCE:Flight International
    Tests begin on Rafale optronics

    The FSO will provide all-weather air-to-air and air-to-ground surveillance and targeting and, says Thomson-CSF Optronique, is the first such system in the West to work on the 3-5 micron band as well as the usual 8-12 micron wavelength, the former providing “considerably improved detection in humid conditions”.

    http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1999/05/05/50879/tests-begin-on-rafale-optronics.html

    Latest, the French Minister of Defense launched the MASTRID programe to increase this very same capability of the DAMOCLED pod.

    http://www.defense.gouv.fr/dga/votre_espace/presse/communiques/2009/plan_de_relance_etude_d_un_pod_de_designation_laser_de_nouvelle_generation

    All-weather/long-range systems are already fieled in Europe, OLOSP on UAVs i.e SIDM, SDTI both in operation in Afganistan and NH-90.

    NEXT:

    It is expected that Elix-IR, along with other products such as MIRAS, a threat warner for fast-jets, Vicon 78, a counter-measure dispenser system, and Imagery on Demand toolsets will constitute the basic components of a future Thales Defensive Aids Suite solution, offering an unrivalled capability for the protection and sustained operation of modern air platforms.
    http://www.thalesgroup.com/News_and_events/LandJoint_Focus_081008_elix_ir/

    A breakthrough in the Infrared Detection technology.

    Based on: Unique Multi-color infrared detectors and band substraction algorithms.
    http://www.thalesgroup.com/assets/0/93/238/5d9f69f3-fe39-459b-98f1-7e2a6cec4cfb.pdf?LangType=2057

    Europe is more advanced in this field, now please FIND us a multi-bandwidth or Multi-color system in US inventory.

    It’s all very well calling pple names and making inflamatory statments based on (what?) hearsay…

    BTW since you’re obviously not going to say it, WIDE BANDWIDTH is making sure of RBE2 AESA LPI capabilties.

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443747
    Dare2
    Participant

    Damn, you don’t even feed them and they steal food off your plate 😉

    Indeed, posting irrelevant comment on pple is way easier than posting accurate informations. 😎

    in reply to: 36 Dassault Rafale for Brasil – Official #2443754
    Dare2
    Participant

    Vive L’Empereur!
    I suspect Embraer has two reasons to favor Gripen. The first is that it wants to demonstrate it has the chops for a full-scale development program, not just an upgrade step for Rafale. The second is reflected in Lula’s statement that France would let Brazil build any other Rafales ordered in South America – but how many of those will there be? Embraer, it’s likely, believes that the Gripen has more upside.

    Would have been a surprise if any Rafale sales had been credited to its qualities, but about Embraer, if acquiring capabilties is their ultimate goal, they shold be realistic and start with something a little less advanced, or call it very high risk.

    Dassault and SAAB designs fighter jets since the 50s Embraer are not going to learn how to do a 2020 front-line fighter in the time frame of one collaborative programe.

    I will bet you Louis XIII to illegal rustic marc that the announcement was news to the French Air Force, which is committed to the A400M and has been searching under the mattress for the money to replace its decrepit tankers.

    What i would like to SEE one day is an Anglo-American writer actually being properly informed instead of simply being stylish.

    A400 M is HARDLY going to fill the role of the AdA C-160 which are kept in flying conditions by pure genius of the “mecca” and our top brasses are saying just that, there are scoop for improvement in the design too.

    their experience is in fighters and high-end corporate jets, and I am not sure what they could do on the KC-390, except make it more expensive.

    They have done Mercure (which was a technical succes if not commercial), are one of the leading companies in HISAC, the European R&D program for a supersonic passenger jet (Coordinated by Dassault) which design team is under their leadership, have done much, much of the world’s best selling and most advanced corporate jets (2000 delivered), 65% of their work definition is in the civilian sector; size is a little irrelevant here, capabilties matters much more and they have them.

    If Dassault can’t improve KC-390 design with some in-house technologies no one else can.

    The deal has been done before the terms are settled, and that doesn’t often work well for either side.

    Dassault-Aviation are not Lockheed Martin.

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443756
    Dare2
    Participant

    (although I see the trolls are still being fed by others). :p

    Is your definition of troll; those who keep posting PR commercials and “Videos” for the stake of making points which are so unrealistic they are funny, while ignoring what a modern fighter Combat Load is and pretending a company likeThales doesn’t do LPI radars?

    We can see a lot of this done in this forum, agreed. 😎

    Meanwhile some infos still manage to be posted by others.

    ls1 miata Quote:

    Now check this out.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/…civilians.html

    and especially this link…

    http://www.you.com.au/news/1275.htm

    Quote:
    The earliest opportunity the company will have to place a high-energy laser system on the JSF will be beginning with the Block Four version around 2012, according to Burris.

    As i was saying; it is far from being a clear cut thing where europe is waiting for the USA to do it all for them, if the US want technologic superiority they’re going to have to work hard for it.

    As for L-M “Plans” for F-35, let’s wait and see, how much of it is going to be operational in 2012 and how much the full advertised set of capabilties is gonna cost.

    For the time Being, Boeing are pushing their F/A-18 forward with some good argumentation, even so the claims of 5th generation fighters are laughable.

    Latest “news” Europe next generation of AESA radars are not LPI, what do we know? 😀

    in reply to: More good JSF news and program updates #2443813
    Dare2
    Participant

    I’m guessing that the F-22s weren’t using any emissions that they didn’t want French aircraft trying to use ESM systems on(i.e. like the Indians don’t use regular modes of their radars when around foreign air forces).

    Well if they didn’t EMIT then they didn’t get spoted and it didn’t get any harder for them on the second try. 😀

    After all you’re right it’s only “Squadron radio” noises.

    We have them as well.

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443819
    Dare2
    Participant

    A lot of folks!

    Find us one.

    Can you post some imagery/clips from the OSF/PIRATE systems for comparison?

    There is nothing to compare, dual bandwidth is better for adverse MTO conditions and as a matter of FACT the US have NO dual bandwidth system in service today and EOTS is limited by Meteorologic conditions. nice pisture doesn’t tell you anything.

    In Europe, such systems and their technologies were developed since the 90s.

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443826
    Dare2
    Participant

    I’ve known about this for awhile now – Impressive, but not new.

    No it’s not exactly new; Feb 2008 publication and they are developing their NEXT defense system too.

    So i guess it’s not going to be as easy for F-35 to be claiming a technologic superiority comes 2015.

    The amazing thing is that European forumers seems to be so much more aware of what is going on on both side of the atlantic…

    in reply to: What is to believe in Super Hornet propaganda? #2443831
    Dare2
    Participant

    Oh, you’re Fonk (or is it Konk)? Sorry, I’m new to these forums.:D

    Never mind who is who, look at who says what, it is most interesting.

    Fonk seems to be the big bad wolf called for eating the litle childrens when they’re having fun in this forum. 😀

Viewing 15 posts - 541 through 555 (of 661 total)