Tempest414So what we already know from before Brirex is the RAF will stand up 2 more Typhoon Sqn’s in effect at the same time as the Tornado’s are retired as for F35 the UK has committed to 138 F-35’s however no time frame or type i.e. A or B has been confirmed we will need about 60 B’s to operate from the carriers however the rest could be the cheaper A model and of course if money is a problem then the 100 million a week Mr Gove is saying he will giving to the NHS may be needed to for fill this
Tempest414I think what also has to be said the pound was at 1.25 from the Friday before the vote and up to the Wed when it jumped to 1.29 on the Thursday of the vote so the drop of .10 looked bigger than it really was also the top 250 British comany recovered trading above pre brexit last night
Tempest414as I have said else where as the next few years roll on and the 5 new River class ships come on line place one on Atlantic patrol North full time also place the second ship in the Med full time with 2 more stationed East of Seuz full time along side a Type 23/26/45 or Bay Class this would serve to reduce the pressure on the Type 23’s in the short term and if need be extend the type 23’s serves life. we would leave the Batch 1 rivers to carry on with there task in UK waters this said I would like to see the New ships up gunned to the 57mm in line with USCG & USN Littoral Ships and in the case of the ships in the Med and E of S a Phalanx
Tempest414Isn’t India making its own carriers?
You are right but if a QE came on the market in the next 5-10 years they will be sniffing. It wont happen UK will just go back to plan A and mothball PofW if needed
Tempest414In 10 years Little Britain is bankrupt and will sell the new build carriers to Brazil. 😎
It will be the only way Brazil will get a good carrier but only when we have worn it out and India would be more likely to get it. and you don’t have to cry for Britain we will be ok
Tempest414There will be some big questions that will need to be work though
1 What deal will Scotland get if any from the EU
2 Who else will look to leave the EU
3 What deals will the UK get from the EU
As for projects Type 26 is not due until 2022 and the UK is not that poor its got sloppy with money
Tempest414The ships sold to Brazil were cheap because they’d already been built for & rejected (because of internal politics) by Trinidad & Tobago. The price was less than originally, & I think below cost. The new Rivers have also had some redesign & fitting of additional equipment which would legitimately make them more expensive. Still expensive IMO, but not as insanely expensive compared to the Amazonas class as it first appears.
The T26 contracts awarded aren’t all for development.
So we give BAE a £472 million ‘demonstration phase’ contract, & BAE uses some of that money to commission equipment for ships from other firms.
For me it is countability I think the taxpayer has the right to know how the money brakes down i.e. with the Rivers something like each ship costs 66 million a 5 year support package at 100 million and 48 million ship yard improvements. Its like the type 26 what is the new cost per ship
Tempest414We all know that the MOD has been wasteful for far to long and that the UK taxpayer knows nothing when it to Defence spending. If we take the Batch 2 Rivers we know that the MOD paid 348 million pounds for 3 90m OPV’s we are told that the money is for 3 Ships and on going support plus some for ship yard improvement. We also know that 3 ships of this design was sold to Brazil for 133 million pounds. When it comes to the Type 26 we know that the MOD has signed contracts for 980 million pounds for development which means the taxpayer has paid 123 million pounds for each of the 8 ship and no steel has been cut which means BAE has only 277 million pounds per ship to bring them in at 400 million per ship as was the brief my guess is these ship will end up costing 600 million each
Tempest414Where was that presented as a possible new RN frigate?
I share your anxiety about having a Khareef-like ship foisted on the RN. Too small, too little range, no growth potential & not (after changing sensors, weapons, CMS, etc.) as quick or cheap as some imagine. ?The original Khareef looks fine for Oman or any navy in a similar situation, but not the RN.
UK Defence Journal for one
Tempest414I said I would like to see a replacement for Ocean I did not say when. I agree we need to get the QE class up and running plus and the type 26/31 right. when I say something like a Juan Carlos 1 I was thinking something that could operate 6 to 8 F-35B if needed in low end ops. my fear over the Type 31 is it will be a bigger Khareef and when we see the first image it looks like that’s what we might get
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Tempest414I think the one thing I fear over the frigate issue is the navy ending up with a revamped Khareef class ship. as for the Carriers I would like to see a replacement for Ocean something like a Juan Carlos 1 which cost 450 million Euros in 2005
Tempest414May be their best option is a 2 seat strike version of Typhoon using CFT’s or just more Typhoons
Tempest414While the cvf will be a great amphib platform it again comes down to we have 1 deployed to do all jobs all over the world. Is it the best most efficient use of resources I don’t know. That depends on what the Royal Navy mission is in the future. I would like to know the costs on building another 1-2 hopefully would be cheaper than the first 2. Pipe dream anyway no escorts etc.
I see a much smaller force of 6 broken type 45’s lol, 8 type 26, 7 astutes, 1 Albion, 2 cvf. By the time the 8 type 26 gets in service the 45’s are on the way out.
I hope I’m wrong but hard to see a change coming. Another worry was the only 3 border guard ships. While France etc have 10 times as many. I would love to see a fleet created like an armed coast guard for patrol home waters stuff. Also use them for Caribbean/med patrols etc. Most importantly budget comes from home office, dept of transport or somewhere.
When looking for a ocean replacement is one of the smaller cv for designs a possibility? Or better with off the shelf design from other country or clean sheet design. The U.K. Seems terrible at designing/building ships in a decent budget. The time it’s takes it seems to more be a money maker/job creator for people.
I forgot we will have 5-7 river class in the mix. Not sure what to make of them
When it comes to the River Class OPV’s I would like to see the Severn, Tyne, Mersey , Clyde carry on in their task and when Forth, Medway, Trent come on line place one in the Med and another on north Atlantic patrol full time. Once the two unnamed ships come on line place them on East of Suez full time freeing up Type 45 and Type 26 for tasking as needed
Tempest414When ever someone puts Argentina in the Heading of a thread by about the 5th post it wonders off track to who owns the Falklands and how the British are so this and that bla-bla-bla. If we can go back to opening post the question is. If you were tasked with up dating the FAA by 2025 how would you do it. Your main threat is the QE11 class carriers with there F-35’s. So with this in mind this is what I said in 2013 and I stand by it today what I would say is replace Mirage F-1 for what type you want however upgraded F-1 would still be a good type in the rejoin.
When you look at Argentina’s Military aviation all three services are flying too many different types and all do the same things like transport and Training they really need to make some simple changes that will save money and improve training and Tasking like
All basic flying training to be carried out at one school for all three services on one Type
Fast Jet Air force and Navy to train at the same school on Tucano and Pampa
All helicopter pilots to train at one school on the MD500 and bell 212 twin Huey
All multi-engine training to be carried out on the Twin Otters as they already have 10 of them
All fix wing transport to be carried out by the Air force with the exception of 5 C-212’s for the Army buy 8 C-295M’s for the air force and retire the F27 & F28 fleets
All transport helicopters to be operated by the Army 20 Huey 2’s and 15 Mil-17’s with the ramp plus two Helicopters for VIP work
All maritime patrol and SAR to be carried out by the Navy buy 18 Bell 412 for SAR role to be operated in 6 flights of 2 aircraft also add 4 C-295 MPA’s
Move all Learjet’s and Citations to the Air Force for VIP work
Find and order 2 two seat Skyhawks fitted to Fightinghawk speck transfer 10 Fightinghawks to the Navy to work along side Brazilian Navy Skyhawks on the Brazilian carrier
Buy the 18 Mirage F-1’s from Jordan upgrade them to MF2000 speck plus buy the 10 best F-1CR’s from for the recon strike role. I know they have tuned down F-1 in the past but I still think F-1 MF2000 is there best option at this time
So it would end up looking like this
Tri service Basic flying School operating 25 aircraft and shearing a base with the Tri service Helicopter training school operating 12 MD 500’s and 8 Bell 212’s for pilot and rear crew training
Tri service multi-engine training school operating 10 Twin Otters and the Airforce and Navy fast jet school operating form the same base operating 25 Tucano’s and 35 Pampa’s
The Airforce would operate
28 Mirage F-1’s
16 Fighting hawks
6 C130’s to be replaced by KC-390’s
8 C-295M
4 Learjets and 2 Citation’s
30 Pucara’s
Navy
12 Fightinghawks
4 P-3 Orion’s
4 C295 MPA’s
3 S-2 Tracker ‘s
6 super king airs
4 Seakings and 4 AS555’s
18 Bell 412’s for SAR
Army
5 C212’s
20 OV-1 Mohawks
20 Huey 2’s
15 Mil-17’s
20 Bell 206’s
20 Z-11’s
All other types would be withdrawn from service
Tempest414Thank you Swerve. Please do give up, it is pointless.
Buitreaux do you see the new Government backing any deal for a new fast jet type with money?. Or will it be more of the same lots of talk but no deal done.
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