21AnkushWho can be surprised? J-10 came decades after F-16 and MiG-29 and they had some outside help. Engines and avionics and most likely in the desing of the plane itself, which reminds a little of a certain failed fighter project in the middle east.
getting the Lavi’s design and access to Israeli technology definitely allowed the Chinese to jump a generation..you can see that difference in the design and capabilities of the JF-17 and the J-10.
an AW&ST article from this week basically corroborated that, when it said that they were pragmatic and cherry picked the best technology that the Russians could offer to them.
21AnkushYES… Canard!! Not to mention specially design area to reduce radar cross section. 4th generation fighter where have this kind of features?
U don’t believe ask, Dassault or BAE.. :diablo:
canards don’t mean any specific generation..Viggens had it and they were probably 3rd generation fighters. and what on earth does “specially design area to reduce radar cross section” on the J-10 mean ??
21Ankushthis was posted by Vishnu Som on BR..he’s an Indian journalist who has been covering defence aviation for a while now and has flown on all the MRCA contenders except for the Rafale.
Hi Guys … I will let you know the broadcast date and time of my documentary soon … but just so that we are all clear … the Indian Air Force did outstandingly well in these exercises. Everything that has been posted is accurate so far and the focus on maintenance is important. In temperatures of more than 47 degrees centigrade … Sukhois kept rolling out with very few having to abort their missions. The availability of the jets was higher than both the French and the South Korean Air Forces.
As far as air to air performances are concerned … can I just say our pilots did splendidly. Yes, there were instances when they were shot down … but there were days when they were number one in the air intercepts charts. And yes, there was one evening when the Sukhois shot down more than a dozen jets in a single evening mission but before we all get too excited … I think its important to point out the following:
1. Sukhois were not flying independently. They were flying as part of a team.
2. Teams were broken down for specific roles. Missions were accomplished if the objective was carried out … not necessarily because a fighter-jock bagged an F-15 that evening.
3. The de-brief process is singularly professional. Pilots are told if they did something right and got something wrong. There is no massive cheer for pilots who shot down other jets.
4. There were significant numbers of EW E6 Prowler jets participating in the exercises.
5. Chaff and Flare deployment was a problem for the IAF because of objections … I think … from the FAA. The IAF doesn’t have training flares/chaff which are less intense. I believe they were trying to resolve this by imposing height restrictions for flare/chaff deployment though I do not know if that eventually worked out.
6. Most air to air engagements were BVR … the use of the IRST was negated.
7. The Garuds are shaping up nicely. They were paradropped into areas where they simulated pilot rescue missions. They are being trained to the same standards as our SFs, MARCOS etc though are yet to be fully equipped.
8. The fully loaded Il-78s pretty much took the entire length of the runway to take off in the super hot conditions.Cheers
Vishnu
the highlighed portion shows that if the French were simply dropping their bombs and egressing while IAF Su-30MKIs got into merges, it was probably part of their mission profile- and the purpose of the exercise was to complete the missions allocated..the insinuation (or direct accusation) of the USAF Col that they were simply absorbing electronic emissions and were around to simply snoop and thats what they’ve been doing during actual deployments, is simply unprofessional..
21AnkushIAF didn’t use any chaff or flares during Red Flag either and only simulated the R-73.
By David A. Fulghum [email]davef@aviationweek.com[/email]
American, French and South Korean aircrews are getting a close look at one of the world’s fabled aircraft – the Indian air force’s Su-30MKI strike fighter.
An Indian air force group of 50 pilots and weapon systems officers – flying eight Su-30MKIs, two Il-78 tankers and an Il-76 transport – are just finishing a month-long deployment to the United States with a training cycle at the latest, annual Red Flag aerial combat excercises based at Nellis Air Force Base, Nev.
They were part of a contingent of 246 IAF personnel selected from 20 (fighter) Squadron, Poona; 78 (tanker) Squadron, Agra; 44 (transport) Squadron, Nagpur, and a special operations team trained for combat search and rescue, says Group Captain Dee Choudhry.
Of great interest to observers – and no doubt to U.S. intelligence – was the Su-30MKI’s Russian-made, long-range radar and AA-12 Adder air-to-air missile capability. In fact, foreign air force officials admit that they suspect that intelligence gathering goes on at an event like Red Flag.
India’s Su-30MKI aircraft offers an especially attractive target. It carries the Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design NIIP-BARS radar that so far has only been seen on the MKI. But it’s considered a variant of what NIIP developed for Russia’s new Su-35 multi-role aircraft and what it’s working on for the next-generation PAK-FA fifth-generation stealth fighter.
One long-time military analyst mused to Aviation Week that the event might provide insight, although it was no certainty. “I’ll bet your [intelligence] boys hovered up every little squiggly amp from BARS. [Yet] sometimes the [radar’s] training mode is just a software package that emulates the radar transmissions, but it’s actually not emitting.”
Indeed, to observers’ dismay, and no doubt to that of the U.S. intelligence community, the IAF flew with a number of handicaps, some of them self-imposed, some not.Their powerful Russian-made radar was, in fact, emitting, says Choudhry, but operating only in the training mode which limited all its range and spectrum of capabilities. In addition, the IAF wasn’t allowed to use chaff and flares to avoid being targeted by surface-to-air missiles nor did its aircraft have the common data link. CDL brings a flow of targeting information into the cockpit displays that improves the accuracy and speed of data transfer and eliminates the need for most communications. The Indian air crews had to rely on voice communications which slowed the process and limited situational awareness.
Despite its limitations, the Su-30MKI’s radar was able enough to allow the IAF’s Sukhois to participate in a beyond-visual-range fight with U.S. aggressor aircraft carrying simulated AA-10C air-to-air missiles. Because there were so many foreign aircraft capable of offensive counter-air/escort missions (including French Rafales and South Korean F-15Ks), the Sukhois are flying fewer air-to-air missions than Indian team members had hoped, Choudhry says.
“It was almost what we expected,” Choudhry says. “Because we couldn’t use our chaff and flares, when we were targeted by SAMs we were shot down. And there was no picture in the cockpit to help our situational awareness so the workload on the [aircrews] was very high.” Nonetheless, “We came a long way. We trained hard. And the degree of difficulty was not unexpected.”
21Ankush21AnkushGood God, people need to READ what others post before jumping to such idiotic conclusions.
The FACT is that India’s VERY BEST pilots participated in Cope India AND OF COURSE some “regular” & some inexperienced pilots did as well. A lot of Indian pilots participated (you HAVE to if you when you have the advantage of 3-va-1 odds). BUT the US pilots were just “regular” unit pilots AND as has been pointed out, they underestimated the Indian pilots & tactics.
READ YOUR OWN LINK!!! US forces had NO AESA, NO AMRAAM & fought against 3-vs-1 odds…
Jump to Red Flag & Indian sent a mixed group of its BEST, “regular” & inexperienced pilots & flew against a similar mix of US pilots. BUT some of the US pilots had recently been fighting vs the F-22 & (most likely) all had been briefed on Cope India…
talk about putting a ridiculous spin on things ! :rolleyes:
21AnkushAnd what would you call it, that you’re doing?:rolleyes:
Furthermore, is the Flanker gonna fly around with its jammer emitting at all times, in case an F-22 or F-35 are flying around? If so, it’ll stick out just as if it had its radar on at all times.
just as much speculation as most of the stuff being mentioned here anyway is..:rolleyes:
21AnkushThere is no such user name and apparently never was at YouTube. I searched Google, Altavista, Yahoo and didn’t turn up a single hit. So either no user existed on a searchable base ( or not listed long enough to be registered in the search engines) , or men in black suits have erased all reference, the search engines (are down/limited at the moment) or filtered; or perhaps you’re simply using the wrong username, or perhaps no user ever existed. 😉
http://www.youtube.com/user/flightfighter62
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=flightfighter62&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
http://www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=flightfighter62&kgs=0&kls=0
he did exist. I saw the video on Youtube when it was first mentioned on BR about a week ago..within a day of that, the video was not available and the user who had uploaded it originally on Youtube simply wasn’t there.
21AnkushDid you even read my post or try to comprehend it, or are you just deliberately trying to filibuster by making mindless flanker fanatic posts?
Obviously my point wasn’t so much against an opponent like a legacy F-15, my point was that the Su-27 is also a legacy aircraft, and against an advanced opponent like an F-22, carrying more missiles can be a weakness rather than the strength. The Su-27 already is a huge lumbering target, adding more missiles to it just makes it easier to shoot down. Odds are an F-22 will spot you and shoot you down before you can detect it or return fire.;)
yes if the jamming that the Su-30 will be applying does not work..can you prove that the Elta 8222 jammer will be ineffective against the F-22’s AESA ? if not, what you’re claiming is just speculation.
21AnkushLOL…
Cope India 04 was NOT as one-sided as the Flanker fanboys want everyone to believe…
At Cope India 04 India sent is VERY BEST pilots vs regular US units – At Red Flag it was some of the best US pilots vs regular Indian units. THE RESULTS SHOW THAT PILOTS SKILL IS THE DECIDING FACTOR.
Utter BS ! its people like you who twist the facts to make it appear that “regular” USAF units got trumped by the best of the IAF.
I know it hurts you to accept the facts, but AW&ST had in its article CLEARLY stated that the IAF did’nt send all experienced or “Top gun” types to the Cope India ex..here is an excerpt from its article..
These same U.S. participants say the Indian pilots showed innovation and flexibility in their tactics. They also admit that they came into the exercise underrating the training and tactics of the pilots they faced. Instead of typical Cold War-style, ground-controlled interceptions, the Indians varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations. Indian air force planners never reinforced failure or repeated tactics that the U.S. easily repelled. Moreover, the IAF’s airborne commanders changed tactics as opportunities arose.Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India’s top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots
.
21AnkushThe USAF came to India to build bridges………….It clearly didn’t want to smoke India on its home turf. Which, explains the ROE and the skill level of the pilots it sent.
Red Flag put the true capabilities of both types into perspective……..:o
so you’re saying that frontline pilots from Kadena, Japan are basically not particularly highly skilled and got beaten 90% of the time by IAF pilots, who were also a mix of very experienced and younger pilots? the IAF pilots that flew in that exercise were from a cross-section of IAF, including Mirage, Bison, Fulcrum, Flogger and Su-30 pilots.
anyway, they themselves were frank enough to accept that they had underestimated how good the IAF was and the exercise changed their opinion..it was something even the guy in the video said, about not a single violation or error of area rules, despite none of the IAF guys having flown in the US anytime before, showing how professional they are.
IAF sent a bunch of very young and inexperienced pilots to Red Flag along with some experienced guys..I don’t have the time, else I’d start posting pics, which would show how young most of them were.
21AnkushDo you really have the numbers to be able to say “shot down in droves” The F-15s were very outnumbered and didn’t use the the BVR capability that they are capable of.
yeah right..just like the Su-30MKIs here didn’t even use their radars in anything other than TRAINING MODE and did’nt use their RVV-AEs..add to that the disadvantage of being out of the datalink due to incompatibility, and having to use voice communication instead..at least during Cope India, the F-15Cs were not restricted from using their radar.
as for numbers, the ratios being given at that time were something like 90% of the time.
“Although service officials have been reluctant to detail how the Indians performed against the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing that participated in Cope India, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.”
21AnkushYet, do we know the ROE??? As the US often gives its opponents the advantage……..;)
you were willing to ignore the ROE (which the IAF self-imposed in order to not allow the USAF or others to get actual info on performance) that didn’t allow the MKIs to use its main weapons and its radar..so why harp on the ROE of Cope India make to the results from that exercise?
21AnkushJust a quick question to Pundits:
We know that SU-30K had F-15/F16 for lunch and dinner in cope India 04.
Here we have SU-30 MKI with TVC and canards and still it lost in 1V1?, does this making a dis-advantage rather than advantage??
Were china right in its procurement of basic design and not going for fancy stuff?
Are Russians already found the uselessness of Canards??
Flex297, Arthur, Corbato where are you guys…..
so then why would the Chinese, whom you are suggesting discovered something no one else knew, would use canards on their J-10 ?:rolleyes:
also, that would mean the Eurocanard designers and users are nitwits. not a smart suggestion there by you.
MiG23MLD tried the same funda- when it works for him, he says that canards are the best thing since baked bread (previous LCA discussion), and when it doesn’t he says that by eliminating canards, the Su-35BM has eliminated all of the MKI’s so called defects.
the fact is that KNAAPO just doesn’t make Su-30s with canards and they simply continued that trend. had IRKUT made a further evolution of the MKI, it would still have canards.
21AnkushJamming pods will play a role in degrading missiles. There are scenarios where a foe won’t know they’re under attack(or not until the last few seconds before impact), and won’t have their ECM on though.
The F-15 uses the ALQ-131 jammer pod(as needed) along with the ALQ-135 which is internal, though it’s obviously nice if there’s an EA-6B, etc… in the vicinity.
During Cope India, standard operational F-15Cs were used and they would have surely used their internal jammers, and yet got shot down in droves..so what does that say about them- that they absolutey require a EA-6B or Growler to be around them to provided electronic support?
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