VnomadThis scenario is impossible. INS Vishal will be a CATOBAR carrier, not STOBAR. MiG-29Ks are not cleared for CATOBAR operations and F-35B would render the whole catapult useless. The options for INS Vishal are F-35C, Rafale M, F/A-18E/F, naval LCA or what-if naval PAK-FA.
If there is any opportunity for the F-35 to sneak into Indian service through the backdoor, then it’s INS Vishal (unless there is naval T-50 around)
:confused:
The INS Vishal is still on paper. While there are indications that they might opt for a CATOBAR configuration (with the EMALS under study), its still far from confirmed. In any case, its the choice of the aircraft that ought to determine the launch mechanism rather than the other way round. For now, there’s the possibility of operating the E-2D, but given the timeline involved you might even have a AEW craft based on the V-22 by then. Lets wait and see.
VnomadWhat they really needed was to cut the feature creep in LCA mk1 and get it running already. It would have freed up resources for FGFA participation AND the AMCA project. LCA mk2 would still be what it is, future orders. Good enough already on LCA. The fifth generation programs suffer under the waste of resources.
The cost for the first 40 Tejas Mk1s is estimated at under $1.2 billion. Just for context, the 490 MICAs acquired for the Mirage 2000 were budgeted at $1.23 billion. One hopes that the cooled economy and for once inelastic defence budget will lead to greater prudence among the brass/mandarins.
VnomadSince the IN operates the P8I, haven’t they already developed a solution for the non US planes to talk to the P8I? would be a shame if those brand new MiG 29Ks cant talk to the P8Is.
BEL delivered the Indian—designed Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) Interrogator – a battle management system that will enable P—8I aircraft to distinguish friendly aircraft and forces.
Indian indigenous deliveries for P—8I also include BEL’s Data Link II communications system, Avantel’s mobile satellite system and the Electronic Corporation of India Limited’s (ECIL) speech secrecy system.
VnomadThe info is from 2005. It is even relevant today?
Anyway, there are only few options.#1 MiG-29K on INS Vikramaditya
#2a MiG-29K on INS Vikrant and Rafale M on INS Vishal
#2b MiG-29K on INS Vikrant and F-35C on INS Vishal
#2c F-35B on INS Vikrant and F-35C on INS VishalI personally think that once the Rafale deal has been inked and if the FGFA deal gets to a point of mutual agreement, the F-35 will not happen.
Time will tell.
Or
#2d MiG 29K & F-35B on all three.
Problem is there is no competition for a third aircraft; if the IN opts for the Rafale M, its stuck with the Rafale M all the way upto 2050. Fine aircraft that it is, I can’t see the Indian Navy sacrificing the option of a stealth aircraft for the sake of commonality with the IAF which will be getting a leg up with a stealth fighter.
Unless a naval PAK FA arrives on scene, the IN will opt for the F-35. B or C, I can’t say; the B will operate on all three ACs plus LHAs and the like while the C is cheaper and has longer legs. Hmm..
VnomadI think India need to decide what they want, first. Obviously they currently want something that is beyond their technical capabilities. Only having money is far from enough.
BTW, if I imagine the production lines for F-35, these could be even much harder to master for HAL than the potential license production of Rafale, an idea which they are currently struggling with. My 0.02
F-35 production? I was referring to purchases off-the-shelf. Plus low grade work share.
We agree, then. But ain’t that merely license building of the PAK-FA, ergo something you have strongly opposed back in your response #76?
Not strongly opposed or in favour of anything. The originally aim behind signing up for the PAK-FA was to tag along with Russia, learn on the job, build an indigenized variant of the PAKFA, and apply the lessons to the AMCA program. For various reasons, that has not panned out. For better or worse, this is where the HAL and MoD are. Instead of flogging a dead horse, its better to get off and start walking. Which in this case, means stepping back and evaluating all options including the F-35. If the PAK FA is selected after that, the process will still have been worth it.
VnomadBecause it would be a huge bargaining chip to expand workshare for the FGFA, and not so easily “surrender” it- much to the disdain of the IAF. They’re well versed in the practise, as seen in the MMRCA shortlisting of the EF & Rafale.
You don’t need a public campaign by the F-35 for leverage during negotiations. Especially since there’s no sure-shot way to calibrate it. Today, its leverage, tomorrow the govt in power will be hauled up in the Indian Parliament, to explain why an open competition wasn’t adopted and pressurized to set up a long public inquiry into potentially illegal conduct, while the opposition promises to cancel the contract, the moment it takes helm.
Now, this is the experience of World-class and long established players in the aerospace industry, how does HAL et al compare and what could they offer LM for ‘workshare’ on the F-35. I won’t get into ToT ’cause that’s a horror story in itself.
Do you now get an inclination of Sukhoi’s reservations? (we’ve already been over the IP issues).
Errm.. I’m not complaining about Sukhoi at all. Its just business, no argument. Sukhoi/UAC has to do what it believes is right for the company and the industry, as it should. Its on the same note that I’m suggesting that HAL ought to withdraw, since there is very limited scope for its involvement. The program can thereafter be run like most other acquisition programs; RFI, RFP, bidding process and so on. IIRC Su-30MK too was evaluated against the Mirage 2000 before being selected.
VnomadThat’s OK but somehow I think that India would expect to get from LMA what they can’t get from Sukhoi. Ain’t gonna happen, though, the F-35 is even far more developed than T-50.
Sukhoi would offer more, no doubt. But given the potential size of the order, hardly enough to negate the need for a competitive evaluation.
OK, but then… If India doesn’t have the expertise/established presence either as airframers, or on the front of avionics, or propulsion, or aerodynamics, or stealth, or advanced materials… how do they want to get the 50:50 share, then?
They shouldn’t. Certainly not as far as development is concerned, production work-share being a different issue.
VnomadThat’s all very well, if you think the FGFA is a standalone item and has nothing to do with the Sukhoi ‘Super-30’; ‘Irbis’ SSN*; BrahMos 2; Kudankulam civil nuclear reactor units 3, 4 and beyond; PWR consultancy for indigenous subs; GAIL pipeline; Yamal LNG stakeholding, Acron DAP; the increase of bilateral trade by nearly 25% year-on-year (!), albeit from a low base (should I go on?).
India-Russia relations don’t revolve around the PAK FA/FGFA certainly. Just goes to show that even if it doesn’t pan out, there are plenty of other areas of mutual cooperation yes.
I for one don’t believe that for one minute, if precedent serves. This story is not so clear-cut** so me thinks it’s best to wait for AK Anthony’s visit to Russia next month for greater clarity. If LM had a whif of any serious Indian wavering on the FGFA (as such industrial e-intel falls under the remit of the NSA), they would’ve already sent reps to New Delhi and the Indian press would’ve been bouncing off the walls. In the meantime if you could tone-down your spleen venting (or set up a dedicated thread to do so) that would be incredibly gracious of you.
How do you know they aren’t? That is to say, why would they do it in such a public fashion (its not like the media has done them any favours before)? Besides, if there’s one think you can say for certain about the Indian govt, it moves at the slow plodding albeit deliberate pace of the water buffalo. Its not a nimble entity. If the FGFA program does start faltering, it’ll be long slow climb-down.
‘Spleen venting’. Surely not. 😀
VnomadWhat exactly would you (or HAL) expect to get from Sukhoi?
And similarly, what would you expect to get from LMA if F-35A was chosen, instead?
Under the arrangement currently being ‘negotiated’ i.e. with an upfront investment of $5.5 billion; reasonably high level of ToT, veto over exports, and production work-share, including exports (not dissimilar to the Eurofighter arrangement). Contribution towards development is clearly not feasible.
Under a regular competitive buy, I’d expect kit assembly plus moderate degree of customization (non-source munitions at the very least) in the case of the PAK FA, whereas with the F-35 you’d probably get some relatively low-level work subcontracted to HAL, maybe a few private players like the Tatas or Samtel, plus other investments by LM to cover offset requirements with the aircraft delivered off-the-shelf (mostly US weapons package).
VnomadWhich most public statement?
“Yes. Given an offer, we will be much interested in having the F-35 fighters,” Admiral Prakash told reporters when asked if the Navy would be willing to procure the advanced fighters from the US.
http://news.outlookindia.com/items.aspx?artid=309785
Some other similar stuff as well.
VnomadI don’t think that F-35 can cope with future T-50 in capabilities, but otherwise yes, it would be possible. If IAF can afford to get back to square one, that is..
Let that come out in the evaluation. Its not necessarily a 1:1 capability equation; the cost of acquisition, operation and support (incl. upgrades) for each aircraft will have a bearing as well. I think the Russians will be the first to testify that the IAF/HAL hasn’t moved too far from square one, as far as the PAKFA/FGFA is concerned.
I am not talking about stores but about internal systems like mission computers, displays, HUD, etc..
US have denied integration of domestic systems to Israel before, I would be surprised if they suddenly changed tune.
Well, unlike Israel, the Indian industry doesn’t have a strong established presence on the avionics front. Certainly not enough to consider replacing any component with a domestic alternative.
VnomadObjections are usually proportionate to the nature & scale of the dispute, & what weapon is offered. For China to object to the Philippines having a single squadron of entry-level fast jets, adequate for limited air policing only, is grossly disproportionate.
The flip-side to that is – what is the value of a typical protest/request of this sort? Amounts to nothing. The Koreans will not change their decision, and that’ll come as no surprise to the PRC. Its a purely symbolic act and given the active disputes between the two countries, is hardly merits more than the odd raised eyebrow.
VnomadWhat you guys say does not compute..
Take a long hard look at the MKI and the exellent shared Development and history between Irkut and HAL.What India WILL get from the FGFA is Kits transfer. No doubt they get to make certain parts and a few systems as well.
Good history yes. But why would HAL put such a premium on kit transfer? Progressive indigenization as in the MKI case (yes I have studied its history) doesn’t appear to be an option with the PAK FA.
Now is this not better than just ordering it up from oversea.. exactly like any F-35 deal would happend??
Eighter way, it seems like a LOT more than LM can ever offer India/HAL.
Assumption being that the two aircraft programs are similar otherwise? I don’t believe India should hold out any expectation of technology from either party. Which means, the IAF/HAL needs to abandon its commitment, such as it is, to the PAKFA/FGFA.
Invite formal proposals from both UAC and LM, and compare them head-to-head on a cost-capability-offsets-workshare matrix. If the PAKFA comes out ahead, well and good. If not, life goes on, kudos to Lockheed Martin.
Several other member here has voiced their point of view about Indias big mouth when it comes to the FGFA program.
I do not think India will pay up $5.5 Billion eighter, this is just old News still floating about..
Old or new, I’m yet to see information that says otherwise. I doubt anybody’s disputing the fact that India was late in signing up and has to therefore live with the consequences. The irritation voiced by some members is aimed less at the Russians/UAC and more at their own MoD/HAL, which instead of making a clean break, no hard feelings, is sending out all sorts of wishy-washy mixed messages; cutting the FGFA order on one hand, but committing millions to the PDC contract on the other.
VnomadThe same accounts for F-35, as well. Even worse, I have doubts India would be allowed to at least integrate any domestic equipment for their F-35MKIs..
Which makes a head-to-head evaluation worthwhile, rather than a non-competitive award to UAC/Sukhoi.
Why would LM&Co oppose integration of domestic equipment? They’re integrating the Meteor and Paveway IV, doubt they’d jeopardize a contract just to be bullheaded over the integration of the Astra and Sudarshan(?). Though the IAF is still likely to prefer an American weapons package.
VnomadSo why should China oppose small-scale, defensive, arms imports by the Philippines? It isn’t hostile to China. It’s defensive, feeling threatened, because China’s aggressive towards it.
Objecting to the sale of a token air policing force to a country with almost 100 million is a hostile act. The tiny FA-50 force the Philippines is buying is no threat whatsoever to China, so why object, except as an act of bullying? China is saying “We don’t think you should even be allowed to police your air space. We don’t recognise you as a proper country.”
This isn’t about the rights and wrongs of the standoff over the Spratly Islands. That’s a different debate altogether. Point was, filing notes of protest towards arms exports, by one party which is in a dispute with another party, is common practice, not to be equated with outright hostility, for example, in the case of any arms exports to Taiwan. Of course, when the media gets hold of such incidents, they often take on a life of their own.
Sign In
