Do you think the USN did all its testing at Seattle? What do you think temperatures are like on the Texas coast in summer, or humidity in Florida? And do you think the USN never considered that it might want to use it in, for example, the Persian Gulf – where the USN operates more or less continuously? It’s not as if civilian Boeing 737 owners avoid the hot & humid parts of the world.

Where did I mention the USN? Please don’t latch on to an argument before understanding the context.

BTW, you’re wrong about Seattle weather. 15C is an unusually cold June day there. Average peak is 20-23C, average low is 11-13C. And it isn’t dry. It rains (mostly light rain) on 30-40% of days.

Okay. Point was, it wasn’t representative of conditions in South India, with temps that can go well past 40 deg C with torrential rains in monsoon season.

Neither is Indian ADGE China centric , it the capability that needs to be developed to deal with known and unknown threats , We dont know why good J-20 and F-35 would be when faced with formidable ADGE or even advanced 4th Gen Fighter like Rafale or Su ……merely using like Gen Ahead and Critics proves nothing

Its only you and a (very) few of our more stubbornly nationalistic French friends, that still subscribe to the notion that the Rafale may be comparable to the F-35 in a deep strike role. For practically everyone else, the difference is rather glaring. As for the Su-30, even the Russians will readily agree that its not (and was never meant to be) as effective against an IADS as sophisticated as China’s.

P-8I operation is limited to coastal areas and 737 as civilian platform operating over wide area is known.

COmparing P-8I and Fighter aircraft and IN and IAF operating regimes is like comparing Oranges and Apple

IF F-16 operation is so well known why was there need to compete in MMRCA trials and F-18 reportedly failed over high altitude area 😉

– The P-8I was never tested in India’s hot and humid coastal areas. (Seattle in June is dry and sunny with peak temp below 15 deg C.)

– Just calling it ‘apples-and-oranges’ falls short of an actual argument. Please point out what unusual operating conditions exist at a typical IAF base.

– The IAF has exactly one high altitude airbase capable of fighter operations, out of two dozen northern airbases. And too is an establishment with no standing fighter complement. The idea that every aircraft inducted by the IAF (even if its only 2-3 specialised squadrons with plenty of range) must mandatorily be tested at Leh is utterly nonsensical.

This sort of absolutism is one of the reasons why the MMRCA turned into a complete farce. One may as well ask why the Phalcon and A330 didn’t go through similar high altitude tests.

Like F-35 onlee 😉

Yes like that.

IIRC he was quoting IAF Sources

Has the IAF ever made a statement to the press on the subject of its nuclear strike capability?

What is that Acceptable Degree of Risk that IAF wont take into account ?

Same judgement that every other air force in the world is making. Especially the PLAAF.

What is the source of such claims ?

Rafale was the righful choice based on clear Winner in Comprehensive Trials and L1 , MMRCA was not a fixed cost tender and the lack of fixed time for its procurement and MOD Decision meant that the cost wont be the same after 10-12 years since MMRCA process started.

Cost of things like TOT makes the final cost unpredictable

Rafale proposal “effectively dead” as Dassault bid not cheapest

Also,

The ‘miscellaneous’ blunder in India’s Rafale deal

In what appears to be a rerun of the Scorpene project, around 50-60 ‘un-priced’ items are believed to have been listed as miscellaneous’ in Dassault’s offer for the Rafale which emerged as L1 or the lowest bidder in the MMRCA tender ahead of the Eurofighter.

MoD sources claim that it is these sundry articles that have emerged as the principal financial hurdle in negotiating the Rafale deal on the basis of its Life Cycle Cost based on keeping the fighter operational for four decades.

It appears that subsequent pricing by Dassault of these so-called miscellaneous but critical items — like in the Scorpene tender — in its deliberations with the MoD’s Cost Negotiation Committee, are responsible for significantly inflating the Rafale contract cost, jeopardising the vendors L1 status and delaying its closure.

The cost of the plant, machinery and tooling which Dassault is required to transfer to Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to licence build 108 of the 126 Rafale’s in Bangalore has also escalated adding to the overall contract price.

But this seemingly Scorpene-like tactic of tagging on ‘miscellaneous’ items to the Rafale contract is unacceptable to the MoD.

Instead, these are deemed by the MoD to be part of Dassault’s final bid, an arrangement that is reportedly unacceptable to the French manufacturer who is seeking to negotiate their costing.

French to make last effort to save Rafale deal today

Jean-Yves Le Drian, French defence minister, will meet counterpart Manohar Parrikar and other officials on Tuesday in an effort to prevent the collapse of talks for the 126 MMRCA from Dassault Aviation. “The MMRCA contract which is commercially and politically complex is not expected to be concluded this fiscal too. The most difficult aspect of this deal besides the offsets contract, there are around 50-60 ‘un-priced’ items believed to have been listed as ‘miscellaneous’ in Dassault’s offer for the Rafale which emerged as L1 in 2012 negotiations with Dassault has not been concluded yet,” a source told FE.

Thats just your opinion ….Any way we will see how far is End of the Year 😀

Yes its my opinion. That doesn’t make it inconceivable or illogical. And yes we’ll see how things pan out, not that the MoD/IAF have a stellar decision-making record.

ADGE upgrade is key and the progress is quite slow , Neither J-10 or F-35 comes with any gurantee that they can penetrate each other ADGE

The Chinese ADGE is not India-centric. The primary threat to it comes from a far more formidable foe that the IAF. And while there are no guarantees in war, there’s also little doubt that the F-35 & J-20 are a generation ahead of their predecessors, especially when it comes to operating within non-permissive air space, something even most of their critics acknowledge. Neither the Su-30 nor Rafale are really comparable in that regard.

You were the one who said that Testing of F-35 is not needed in India and you can get it in xyz time and its tested in US etc etc

I stated that even MMRCA types which are years and decades in Host AF service were tested rigorously in Indian Condition , There is no running around from this fact.

P-8 is not a fighter aircraft and even FGFA will be rigrously tested in Indian condition when it is available ……As MMRCA has shown well tested a proven types aircraft tend to fail in Indian condition

P-8I would hardly be operating any where but near the coast a Fighter has to operate from Hot and Humid to High Altitude to NE and South ..and in that the weapons and sensors has to as well , do you see the difference ?

The climate in Seattle is very different from the climate at Rajali.

Aside from the hot and high summers at Leh, there are no climatic conditions that are specific to India. ‘Hot and dry’ and ‘hot and humid’ conditions have been tested at Eglin. As have intensely wet conditions typically of monsoonal areas (been tested in hurricane-type conditions actually). Other aspects such as dust storms can be experienced across the South West USA.

The IAF and (more particularly) the IA have faced issues in the past, because the Russian and European equipment they traditionally operated was, more often than not, designed for the European theatre, where ‘harsh’ conditions meant intense cold, heavy snow & sleet, especially as one moved north towards the Arctic. Very different case where the aircraft has been designed from get go to operate in tropical as well as desert conditions. The PAF F-16 (a type the F-35A is replacing), for example, has operated from hot and humid coastal areas, from hot and dry plains and from cold mountainous regions. And from everything I’ve read.. they swear by it.

What is hardly or not will be seen if F-35 comes into the picture in first place ………..its all Academic Discussion only 😀

Whether the Rafale will be signed given the stalemate on cost, remains to be seen. Whether the follow-on orders for the Su-30MKI will be placed, remains to be seen. Whether the Tejas Mk1A will be ready in time, remains to be seen. Whether the PAK FA/FGFA deal will be signed, remains to be seen. Whether this ‘other’ type mentioned by Parrikar (and now the IAF chief) will actually be ordered, remains to be seen. All academic.

However, as long as we’re discussing it, several media sources have mentioned the likelihood of this ‘other’ type being a western fighter. That’s unlikely to be the F-16. The Rafale is a possibility, but given its cost and the MoD’s attitude to the current sale, that’s far from assured. The Eurofighter is in the same shoes cost-wise. The Gripen E overlaps with the Tejas and the IAF is opposed to it (acc. to a recent news article). What does that leave?

As Vishnu mentioned it would be used for Strategic Role

And that’s Vishnu’s opinion. Now if he was quoting an IAF source/officer in the decision-making loop, that would be a different thing.

Upgraded Su and Tejas can do that as well.

Not within any acceptable degree of risk. The Tejas has short range and a modest avionics kit, its selling point is its cost (for routine/workhorse missions). The Su-30 has a huge RCS and also a modest EW suite (which even an upgrade will only moderately improve).

It was both the Winner and L1 at that point in time , Eurofighter came 2nd

They simply reduced the Number and Went for G2G rest the Winner of MMRCA was judged good enough for purchase

It was L1 on bases of flawed calculations (“During three years of negotiations between Dassault and MoD officials in the so-called “contract negotiation committee” (CNC), it has emerged that Dassault’s bid was actually higher than that of the Eurofighter Typhoon, not lower as the MoD had announced on January 31, 2012.“). It was as much a ‘winner’ as a runner that started the race before the starter’s pistol went off, and was ‘leading’ when the race was stopped. There’s no way of proving that the Eurofighter under similar conditions, wouldn’t have presented a better offer. Clearly it was three years of negotiations with Dassault rather than the results of the MMRCA trials that was the determining factor.

Every one is pitching in so its fine for SAAB and Boeing to do , thats their business after all.

They’re pitching because they don’t perceive the results of the MMRCA trials as being a disqualifying factor for a future Indian order. You disagree, that is your opinion which you’re entitled to. But until the MoD or IAF puts out a statement supporting that opinion, its no reason to narrow the scope of the discussion we’re having here on Keypub.

Exactly and there comes no gurantee that a Stealth would Neutrlaise all of these or some of these …..So my point stands a counter to these system is not necessarily a Silver Bullet , IAF would be better of signigicanly upgrading its ADGES , SAM and other systems which are still 70’s stuff with the money they spend on any silver bullet solution

Upgrading its own ADGE (which its doing in any case) doesn’t help with what is an entirely different task – penetrating China’s extremely potent ADGE. Unless they wish to perpetually play defence. With regard to stealth, far from an exotic ‘silver bullet’, its a pretty standard solution to reducing risk in offensive missions inside hostile airspace which is why practically every major air force in the world is investing in it. Nor is it a very expensive solution with the F-35’s cost comparable if not lower than the Rafale.

Please show me where these tests are not needed …..Show me why MMRCA type operational in host airforce for many years had to go through these comprehensive trials and some even failed on some trials

Given that you were the one who claimed that the DPP makes a distinction between fighter and non-fighter aircraft types, its incumbent upon you to prove that.

What the P-8 case shows, is that the nature of the evaluation is left to the discretion of the concerned service, an evaluation that may or may not involve an year-long set of multi-season tests. Another apt example being the PAK FA, where an Indian pilot will get to fly a prototype, only after the FGFA deal is inked (link).

Field evaluations of the P-8 took place in June 2007 in Seattle, but of course there was no aircraft fielded because it hasn’t been developed yet. Incidentally, production of the first P-8A for the US Navy began just over a month ago on 11 December 2007. For demonstrations etc, Boeing has leased a 737-800 for flight trials, a C-40 Clipper (military variant of the 737) for handling trials and a P-3 Orion for systems trials. The evaluation conducted was judged technically compliant by the Indian Navy.

^ Demonstration not testing, conducted in a high latitude oceanic climate rather than a hot humid tropical climate. Mission systems trials on a separate platform. (P-8 like all other US military aircraft was put through climatic testing at Eglin, reports from which would no doubt have been made available to the IN).

All these are just small buys , Rafale is a Strategic Buy though a small one ( they might buy more of it in the future its something remains unknown ) We have yet to see what Dassault offers with Rafale when the deal gets signed we would come to know whats on TOT

At $3.1 billion, hardly ‘small’ and nonetheless devoid of ToT, proving its not a mandatory requirement. Which of course doesn’t exclude the possibility of a ToT complement to future deals – some degree of it will be available with the F-35 as well (case-in-point: South Korea).

There’s nothing strategic about the Rafale purchase. It was meant to be a solatium to Dassault/France (and to a lesser extent.. the IAF) for cancelling the MMRCA deal. The increment to the IAF’s capability the deal provides is modest (and entirely out of proportion to its cost).

MOD also said if Rafale fails they will buy more Tejas and MKI …….As of now both MKI and Tejas has significant component of indiginisation and infrstructure created and predicitibility in numbers made by HAL also part of current GOI Make in India ….thats the best option to bump up numbers with capability

More Tejas & Su-30s is the best option to bump up numbers, but which still leaves a void at the higher end for high risk tasks – SEAD/DEAD, deep strike/recce/ELINT, anti-AWACS, etc.

The original numbers yes but the winner of MMRCA is still the one GOI is negotiating for off the shelf purchase

First of all, it wasn’t the winner of the MMRCA, since the MMRCA ended up being cancelled. It was only judged the L1 entry (lowest bidder) and that too based on calculations that were later found to be deeply flawed (Rafale proposal “effectively dead” as Dassault bid not cheapest).

The only relevance of the MMRCA was to publicly justify the MoU on 36 Rafales signed by Modi in Paris. Nothing more. Were it truly based on the actual result of the MMRCA, they would have invited Germany/UK to put in a bid as well, since the Eurofighter too had been judged to be ‘technically compliant’ by the IAF.

It certainly has no impact on the other purchases being mooted by the defence minister, which is why both Saab and Boeing are making a renewed pitch for an IAF contract in New Delhi. (Boeing CEO pitches F/A-18 Super Hornet) (Sweden Pitches Sale of Saab’s Gripen-NG)

Depending on what’s on them…

it’s sure that a video of flying in a straight line doesn’t show much… if you look at the few videos MSphere posted, even if you don’t have the hard data of various manoeuvers performed, you still can assess that these aircraft have high power and agility…

But can we conclude that the aircraft in question are supersonic from those videos..

How many aircraft in the those videos are pulling 9Gs?What of supercruise, can any of them do that? If so, how would we ever know for sure?

More Su-30’s can be supplied in a predictable time frame. Tejas Mk2 can’t. Nor can PAK FA/FGFA. AMCA is 2030+ so basically India needs to get something for deep strike, deep recce, SEAD etc. Choice seems to be Rafale, Typhoon, F-35.

Also the Super Hornet.

Rafale seems to be too expensive. Typhoon, well, because of special circumstances – namely, some partner countries will have too many when they receive tranche 3 aircraft – this might be the least expensive option.

The EF T1s is valuable only to cheaply make up the numbers (equipped as it is with an older EW suite and limited multi-role capabilities). All the high risk missions however will still be tasked to the EF T3, which is no cheaper than the Rafale. Both of which will be limited by their non-stealthy airframes.

F-35? Who knows how expensive it will be to operate + US will try to stop you using it if your country wants to do something that does not fit in with the current American view of how the world should be.

“Wants to do something like”..? Invade Diego Garcia? I imagine the US will try to stop something like that. However, as long as they’re intended for defence against China, the US will be more supportive than any European supplier as well as Russia and Israel.

Once they retreat from the AfPak theatre, you can probably add Pakistan to that list (little love lost between the two at this point). India on the other hand, has no intention of employing the F-35 against any other adversary. And its overall geopolitical goals are, broadly speaking, compatible. Neutral stance in the Middle East while pursuing close ties with Japan and the ASEAN.

As for operating cost – the F-35’s CPFH is about 25% higher than the F-16 as per the last SAR. Isn’t cheap, but isn’t hugely expensive either.

The Challange to a Stealth Fighter is not necessarily another stealth fighter , they can be SAM better ADGES , EW , Radars and many other things.

Just because the Chinese get J-20 does not mean IAF should jump into F-35 or F-22 etc or other fighter

To those J-20s, you can add KJ-200s, KJ-500s, KJ-2000s, KJ-3000s,, HQ-9s, HQ-16, HQ-17s, S-400s, JYL-1s, JY-14s, JY-26s, aerostat radars, hordes of AESA-equipped J-10s & J-11s equipped with PL-12C/Ds, all tied together by a first-rate C4I system.

Thats just a bunch of Assumption

Flight Testing is Not Mandatory
TOT is not Mandatory
DPP is not Mandatory
F-35 is Mandatory 😀

Neither P-8I or C-17 are fighter and IAF fighter operate in vast areas and varid cliamatic condition , somethings that work abroad in their condition may not work too well in areas IAF operate , Hence Flight Test Program is needed

Please show me where in the DPP does it say that only fighters need be flight tested and other aircraft are to deemed to be immune to varied climatic conditions. Don’t ‘interpret’ regulations.

As for ToT, please explain what technology India is getting through the AH-64E, Chinook or Rafale acquisitions (all deals signed or proposed by the current govt).

MOD also said PLAN B was to procure more Su-30 and Tejas

F-35 does not come under offcial discussion nor were it part of any MMRCA trials , so its just Academic

More Su-30s and Tejas are being procured. In addition, the MoD is considering a fighter purchase to complement that. An acquisition that both Parrikar and the IAF chief have made abundantly clear, isn’t restricted to the Rafale.

The MMRCA has been dead for a long while, and its corpse was officially buried by the MoD in July last year. It has no relevance anymore.