As a cost cutting measure could they either suspend construction for a year or so or string construction out still further to save money and thus delay the inservice dates of both QE and PofW and bring them in line with the perfection and potential instyallation of EMALS?

Nope it costs more in the long run, less as an immediate cost but greater cost in the long run. Theres the factor of keeping the shipyards busy as they still need the skilled staff to complete the new ships, then theres the cost of keeping the ships & aircraft their replacing in service longer than intended. Thats part of the reason the carriers are now £5.2 billion for the pair rather than £4 billion as the previous government dragged their feet on the project due to getting stuck in Iraq & Afghanistan. First with main gate approval, then holding back the order 18 mths to woo the French and then last year stretching the build out ! (Personally i suspect the reschedule last year was mainly due to them being told by the builders that the original delivey dates were based on the orders being placed when originally scheduled and keeping it on hold for 18mths meant they won’t be able to catch up and meet the deadline being quoted by the govt !)

G

If its about retaining the skill set and expereince together with local air defence, should they not consider going with a cheaper option of say Advanced Trainers such as the T-50 or the BAE Hawk 128.

The new trainers can replicate the system of the new mainstream aircraft to ensure the aircrew skill set reamins high whilst used a relatively cheaper airframe to buy & operate to make up numbers for local air support duties.

Just thought it might make sense as the Airforce are looking for a new Advanced Trainer, they could bulk out the order.

G

I know that there was reference recently to an Air Marshall saying that he had concerns but your comment suggests that this is more than a concern – has there been a re-evaluation of the programme and will we likely see something the public domain soon about this?

:confused: – are your referring to the CVF’s or the F-35C that Geoff mentions?

Only in that the SDSR is probably being used at a catalyst. The original intention was to review performance after the flight testing and sea trials have been done and then compare actual performance with the JCA requirement.

The trouble is the JCA requirement was basically set after the previous SDR and since then the post cold war world has changed somewhat, then the JCA was basically a SHAR/Harrier. The SDSR is looking at everything in terms of costs, capability and flexibility in line with current and future strategy. The way Dalton mentions you know they are looking at it, what the government actually does about is anybodies guess at the moment. Alot depends on what they are looking to get rid of, what they intend to keep and how they intend to cover (or not) any subsequent loss in capabilities.

The SDSR may well revise the JCA requirement, both in numbers but in terms of expectations, they may lower some aspects to allow the the F-35B to meet those areas its currently struggling with at the moment, or it may expand it to cover the shortfall should Tornado be heading to the knackers yard earlier than expected. Thats probably where most of the rumours come from as they go through the review process and the options available.

G

Irrelevent when its the performance of the STOVL type that you are lionising isnt it?.

You can talk about the 20’s and 30’s all you like. I’ll talk about the financial realities of today. The F-35B deal is win-win for both the dark blue and light blue. The RAF get expeditionary strike capability they would lose almost completely with Jaguar and Harrier, they get it half funded by the navy and they get the ‘jointness’ credentials to shield it behind. The RN get carte blanche to progress with the carriers without light blue interference and only have to pay a percentage for the airwing. They get to leverage light blue assets if the need for a surge capacity occurs and get away with lean ops costs during peacetime.

You sure you wanted to quote that article?

74 test flights doesnt seem to indicate the thing is not airworthy does it?. No fundamental engineering changes required?. Not quite the picture of doom and gloom being hinted at is it?.

Except most of those 74 flights are not with BF-1 but the other 4 BFs and flying in CTOL mode only. BF-1 is doing the STOVL trials and finding all the problems as a result.

Overheating due to unpredicted temps found in compartment and insufficient cooling, drive shaft linking the fan drive also not temp rated and a replacement part is not due till 2012. Actuator failures on the Doors needed to engage STOVL mode and the ione thats stumped them is the excessive heat on the down blast having too much of an effect on the surface it encounters.

Then of course you also ignore that fact that the F-35B is not meeting the UK JCA requirement, i think you’ll find thats the concern for the SDSR at the moment, its over inflated price and for the aircaft that doesn’t meet the original spec.

The MoD are either going to drop their expectations and give LM the time and money needed to get the F-35B operational, or they choose an alternative path…..

Pointing out all of the down sides of stovl flight, while ignoring positive things
Like stealth, survabiliy , BVR dominance, jamming, sensors, ect.
Booo bad form!

Nope those are on the CTOL F-35 A & C too and they have the advantage of extra capacity & range with the added baggage of a lift fan and numerous doors needed to open for STOVL flight.

G

We aren’t talking about lego here gents!. Nocuts is exactly right here!.

Margin has been left in the design for the instalation of catapult and arresting gear, but, the carrier is designed as a STOVL ship. That was the point of the FJCA downselect!.

Adapting the design to cat ops will require new plans to be drawn up and modification far below the flight deck. Spaces would be needed for additional personnel, additional engineering workshops and stores and thats before we get to the power and control systems to run whichever type of cat we go for.

Remember the cat decision is far from an easy one as well. Stories abounded just last year that EMALS wasn’t going to scale up at all. Its a long way from guaranteed that it will enter service. Steam cats are not a real option for us as we haven’t had high pressure steam in the surface fleet since the Fearless was decommissioned. Dont underestimate the difficulties involved with your ‘simple’ switch!

Dont talk wet, if that was the case the govt would have had to have ordered the JCA at the same time as the carriers and confirm its comittment to the F-35B and CVF. It DIDN’T, why because it has the slack in build program to allow the F-35B to prove itself before the final format carrier features enter the construction cycle.

The design work for Catapults & arrestor gear was done for PA2, they needed to know what was involved so the stucture could be built into the CVF & PA2 designs including power generation be it steam or electrical.

STOVL is still only the currently preferred format, building has started on this assumption, but they know full well that it could quickly change once final JCA selection is made.

[QUOTE=nocutstoRAF;1633801]Having an engineering background – admittedly as a materials scientist (modern version of metallurgist) working in civil engineering field not mechanical or maritime and I having only worked in consultancy for a few years before moving on, but I am not sure you can say it will be easy to add EMCAT. There might be space for the additional generators and for the EMCAT but it will take significant work to fit them in now and it is seriously going to screw with the work programme, very likely resulting in a total rescheduling with materials ordered on long lead times ending up sitting about and possible with you having people sat around to twiddling their thumbs as what you employed them for has been delayed, resulting in more costs and the whole programme moving to the right.

QUOTE]

Your forgetting the construction of the CVFs, the flight deck level is being built by Camell laird in Liverpool, final Assembly wont be for a few years, that why the MOD has the leeway to await on the F-35B flight testing before confirming JCA choice and final carrier configuration.

what about just letting the US certify SDB and then buying them?
The F-35B will be gimped with out either SDB or laser Jdam. This is all turing out to be a real cluster of a mess.

Nah we signed up not to use cluster bombs based weapons :diablo:

SDB may become a weapon of choice eventually especially in areas where the civilian population are in close proximity to the target.

Weapon intergration may become one of the biggest bug bears with the F-35, the Typhoon is still stuggling with intergrating the A2G loads.
I recall seeing a report online saying the batch 1 F-35Bs will have a very limited capability and they hope to update the software later once the batch 2 & 3 aircraft have expanded the weapon qualification. Bit worrying that the text said ‘hope’ !!!! dosen’t fill you with confidence does it 🙁